Hi there,
I'm an industrial design student at konstfack, and I'm currently working on a design for a Velomobile as a mode of transport for every day commuting. Unfortunately I do not have access to an actual Velomobile, even though Bart De Wert maker of the Aerorider velomobile is helping me with his expert opinions I still need to actually get near one, ride one, or even borrow one for a day (it would be kept under lock and key at Konstfack).
Is there anyone out there that would be able to help? Im prepared to travel to anywhere in Stockholm at any time of day, preferably when there is still light though (for photos possibly).
If you are prepared to help but unsure, I'd be more than happy to have one of the professors call / talk to you to provide assurance.
Please respond on this forum then I will get back to you with contact details.
Thank you in advance,
Daniel
Konstfack University College of Arts, Crafts and Design - Stockholm The Glasgow School of Art - Scotland
On 27 Mar 2010, at 16:16, Daniel Short wrote:
Hi there,
I'm an industrial design student at konstfack, and I'm currently working on a design for a Velomobile as a mode of transport for every day commuting. Unfortunately I do not have access to an actual Velomobile, even though Bart De Wert maker of the Aerorider velomobile is helping me with his expert opinions I still need to actually get near one, ride one, or even borrow one for a day (it would be kept under lock and key at Konstfack).
You could also start with using more than one 'expert' as the Aerorider is not the most efficient or effective velomobile.
Is there anyone out there that would be able to help? Im prepared to travel to anywhere in Stockholm at any time of day, preferably when there is still light though (for photos possibly).
I assume Frederik Van De Walle will react as he owns (and designed) a velomobile and is living close to Stockholm.
I also own one, but am not really living close to Stockholm.
/Mars
-- Ga toch fietsen, dat is pas stil ...
Thank you for your advice.
I have been looking for contact details of Mr Van Der Walle but haven't been able to find anything. I would of course get in touch with him, I've read his Thesis from his time at KTH and found it extremely insightful.
My reason for contacting Bart De Wert is mainly that his Velo is quite symbolic in the context of my rationale for the Velomobile as a commuting vehicle rather than solely foe enthusiasts. but it's not necessarily representative of my ideas of a Velomobile for the masses.
If you can provide some contact details for Frederik Van De Walle or even a place I could look then I would be very happy indeed.
Thanks,
Daniel
On 27 Mar 2010, at 16:49, Daniel Short wrote:
My reason for contacting Bart De Wert is mainly that his Velo is quite symbolic in the context of my rationale for the Velomobile as a commuting vehicle rather than solely foe enthusiasts. but it's not necessarily representative of my ideas of a Velomobile for the masses.
Well, to give you my opinion: as a commuter velomobile the Aerorider is too heavy and has a too large frontal area. Or actually, the Aerorider is not a velomobile, but an electrical vehicle. The Sunrider (derived from the Aerorider) is a true velomobile, but has the same problems.
I suggest you speak to more builders, e.g. Allert Jacobs (Velomobiel.nl: Quest, Strada, Mango), Frederik Van De Walle (designer of the WAW), Johan Vrielink (Flevobike Versatile).
/Mars
-- Ga toch fietsen, dat is pas stil ...
Hello,
Well, I can give you this, as Frederik is one of our official contact persons for HPV Sweden: http://www.liggister.org/kontakter/Frederixikontakt.htm
And I must strongly second Mars' advice: get in touch with as many velomobile makers as you can. Both the pros and the homebuilders. I suppose you've read all there is on velomobil.se? http://velomobil.se/
27 mar 2010 kl. 16.49 skrev Daniel Short:
Thank you for your advice.
I have been looking for contact details of Mr Van Der Walle but haven't been able to find anything. I would of course get in touch with him, I've read his Thesis from his time at KTH and found it extremely insightful.
My reason for contacting Bart De Wert is mainly that his Velo is quite symbolic in the context of my rationale for the Velomobile as a commuting vehicle rather than solely foe enthusiasts. but it's not necessarily representative of my ideas of a Velomobile for the masses.
If you can provide some contact details for Frederik Van De Walle or even a place I could look then I would be very happy indeed.
Thanks,
Daniel
-- Svara gärna EFTER orginaltexten och ta bort den delen som du inte svarar på. Info: http://lists.lysator.liu.se/mailman/listinfo/hpvs
Regards, Peter Markusson
Tel 031-12 71 64 Mob 0705-12 71 60
Adress: Långedragsvägen 61 C 426 71 Västra Frölunda
Also, for interesting and creative ideas, it is very worthwile having a long and hard look at the paper and videos from the latest Velomobile Seminar, held in Copenhagen in October '09.
http://liggecykelforeningen.dk/Designseminar/Proceedings
There is so much interesting stuff there. Don't miss the video with Harald Winkler throwing his 1.2kg fairing straight down on the floor to demonstrate its durability.
Due to a very strange and unusual ranting email from one of the users on this forum in response to my initial request I must clarify:
(i cannot post his message since he explicitly said I couldn't)
The scope of this project is this: I am designing a velomobile. I chose this particular type of cycle because of their unique properties that may be exploited to replace fossil fuel powered vehicles for certain journeys. Further, I want to design a velomobile suitable for commuting.
The scope of this project is not to fully resolve every issue, but rather to form a concept that represents the possible future of velomobiles had they experienced the same evolutionary explosion as bicycle did in the 1980's for example.
and for the love of god - if you are going to email me to 'help' then be nice and help, don't be angry just because a design student appears to have taken on more than you think they could possibly understand.
I thought dinosaurs were extinct!
to everyone else - thank you for your guidance!
dan
(design student / cyclist / cycle mechanic)
Daniel,
I am sorry to hear that you got a bad response from this forum. It makes me sad. Every effort in this area should be encouraged. A velomobile can be designed in many different ways.
I have got practical experience from using velomobile for transportation (Mango from velomobiel.nl) and even though I have not designed any velomobile of my own, I have thought a lot about different approaches and designs, and I also have got experience from using electrical assist, both on bike and velomobile.
Best regards,
/Bruno
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Thanks Bruno, can I ask you for some of your opinions about the use of a velomobile?
This kind of volunteered input I'm asking for is invaluable even though it seems like just opinions and not 'serious' research. It's value comes from comparing opinions and extracting insights from many statements giving a base of information with a value greater than the sum of it's parts.
So if anyone would like to simply talk about their experience on this message board, and possibly start a spirited debate than please feel free. I can post all of my work at the end, and outline where any input had a direct effect.
Also, I have some specific questions I will post also. Again, anyone that helps in any way with giving me some real organic anecdotal information as a posed to pointing me to other sources (although I do like that to) will be credited in presentations and invited to see the results of this project.
Thank you
Dan
Hello Dan!
I ride an Alleweder velomobile and one thing I missed was the possibility to bring a child. That is quite a common request for any parent who consider a bike. Here in Malmö it´s becoming popular to buy some kind of 3-wheeled transport bike like the Christiania or the Nihola to transport one or more children. Why wouldn´t a velomobile owner want to bring children along?
As for myself I put the saw in the aluminum body and cut out a hole where I put a modified childseat. Next on my to do list is some kind of roof.
best regards
Christian Fasth Malmö _________________________________________________________________ Klicka här! http://new.windowslivemobile.msn.com/SE-SE/windows-live-hotmail/default.aspx
On 30 Mar 2010, at 00:00, Christian Fasth wrote:
I ride an Alleweder velomobile and one thing I missed was the possibility to bring a child. That is quite a common request for any parent who consider a bike. Here in Malmö it´s becoming popular to buy some kind of 3-wheeled transport bike like the Christiania or the Nihola to transport one or more children. Why wouldn´t a velomobile owner want to bring children along?
As for myself I put the saw in the aluminum body and cut out a hole where I put a modified childseat. Next on my to do list is some kind of roof.
Three kids, one in front, two in the trailer: http:// fotos.ligfiets.net/d/11809-2/bdm-20081228-0109.jpg
/Mars
-- Ga toch fietsen, dat is pas stil ...
Three kids, one in front, two in the trailer: http:// fotos.ligfiets.net/d/11809-2/bdm-20081228-0109.jpg
/Mars
I tried to put my toddler in my lap like that in my Mango, but it did not work very well as he interfered with my pedalling
/Bruno
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It is OK to ask for my opinions about the use of a velomobile, Daniel. My answers will not be scientific, but rather hands on experience from practical use.
/Bruno
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I have been thinking a lot about ways of making my commute better - for me, that is. One very important improvement would be weather protection even at stand-still. Provided it works in the commuter's reality - for this it will also need great manouverability, fast acceleration and low(ish) weight - a velomobile is a great idea.
Thanks Bruno, do you have anything to add about riding in traffic and visibility. Ever thought of adding something to your cycle to increase other road users awareness of you for example?
Also ride height. I'm trying to find a sweet spot between being visible to other road users but not making it so the ride height disturbs the stability. One approach I'm using is to widen the track width (I believe thats the term for the lateral wheel base dimension). I found visually it gave my design more 'presence' too.
best
Dan
Built a fairing for my trike. I find that too wide a track is not a good thing. I prefer being able to get it through my front door and having it narrow enough to be able to overtake on bikepaths. Around 70 cm.
I also kept the rack free a la Go One to allow me to use my pannier bags for shopping etc. Also makes it easier to use a trailer.
I went for a semienclosed canopy. Open in the back and with an opening in the windscreen. This to avoid problems with fogging/rain/snow and thus eliminating the need for wiper. Also provides some much needed ventilation but it still gives good shelter from the wind and rain. The amount of moisture that gets in is still a lot less that what I get from sweating.
Lots of pics of the build, starting here: http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2143407000045660131VVEicS And finished item: http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2451458220045660131MiXujX
Daniel,
I have ridden ordinary bikes, recumbent bike, recumbent trike and velomobile. They get better
attention from left to right. I feel most safe in the velomobile, not because of the shell but
because car drivers are most cautious around the velomobile. In spite of that, some people think
that I am not that visible (funny because they spotted me anyway).
Even though many mention a flag as a good thing to get visible, I have noticed that this is not
always enough on a recumbent. When I am out in the traffic I personally think that it is easiest to
spot bikes that use a light, even at daytime. It beats everything, even a flag.
I do not use a flag on my velomobile. Visibility from the rear is good because the rear end is
covered with a reflective material. It could be better at the front, especially as the front area
is pretty small and the vehicle is pretty low. I think that a light is a good idea in order to get
visible for other road users. The biggest problem is that car drivers "do not see you" because they
don't recognize the vehicle, but a light on it makes it more clearly a moving vehicle.
A velomobile that is to be used as a bicycle needs to be pretty narrow to fit bike lanes and not
obstruct traffic too much. The bodywork makes it possible to keep seat height pretty low (it is
around 150 mm on the Mango) and still pretty uprigth seating position for good vision and still
keep the air resistance low. The seat angle on the Mango is 35-40 degrees which makes it
pretty low overall. Still I don't think it is too low in traffic, however headlamps on cars can be a problem and I wish sometimes that I was seated more upright because of that. One tricky thing about seat angle is to get comfortable dimensions that not strain either your neck, nor your behind.
A larger velomobile does not fit very well at the road side, on bike lanes or in traffic.
However the Leitra is pretty wide (around 1 m) and still seems to be quite usable in the same way
as a bicycle. My Mango is 750 mm wide (total width) which makes it very good even on narrow paths.
A larger, heavier and more car-like, assisted velomobile needs to be fast to keep up with traffic,
and it will not be allowed on or will be too large for bike lanes and may still be an obstruction in traffic.
In order to get a more stable and still narrow velomobile, I have thought about quads, but I have been discouraged because of the added complexity and weight. Probably you can use up to 1000 mm total width to get a stable velomobile, however I prefer a maximum width of 750-850 mm in order to fit bike lanes.
/Bruno
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2010/3/30 B D be_dal@yahoo.se
Even though many mention a flag as a good thing to get visible, I have noticed that this is not
always enough on a recumbent. When I am out in the traffic I personally think that it is easiest to
spot bikes that use a light, even at daytime. It beats everything, even a flag.
I do not use a flag on my velomobile. Visibility from the rear is good because the rear end is
covered with a reflective material. It could be better at the front, especially as the front area
is pretty small and the vehicle is pretty low. I think that a light is a good idea in order to get
visible for other road users. The biggest problem is that car drivers "do not see you" because they
don't recognize the vehicle, but a light on it makes it more clearly a moving vehicle.
I dont have any velomobile experience, but on my recumbent lowracer I have
mounted to small Led-lights on my helmet which I think helps a lot for my visibility. Not only are they on the highest part of the bike but since i move my head quite a lot in city traffic the lights move too and moving lights are a lot easier to spot than stationary ones.
2010/3/30 B D be_dal@yahoo.se
Even though many mention a flag as a good thing to get visible, I have noticed that this is not
always enough on a recumbent. When I am out in the traffic I personally think that it is easiest to
spot bikes that use a light, even at daytime. It beats everything, even a flag.
I do not use a flag on my velomobile. Visibility from the rear is good because the rear end is
covered with a reflective material. It could be better at the front, especially as the front area
is pretty small and the vehicle is pretty low. I think that a light is a good idea in order to get
visible for other road users. The biggest problem is that car drivers "do not see you" because they
don't recognize the vehicle, but a light on it makes it more clearly a moving vehicle.
I dont have any velomobile experience, but on my recumbent lowracer I have
mounted to small Led-lights on my helmet which I think helps a lot for my visibility. Not only are they on the highest part of the bike but since i move my head quite a lot in city traffic the lights move too and moving lights are a lot easier to spot than stationary ones.
Thanks Bruno, useful stuff.
I'm aiming for 1 to 1.1 m track width so far, and i think the cycle paths are fine with that dimension. The slightly wider width gives me some freedom to increase centre of gravity a bit more for a higher profile.
Also, it won't be on a car scale, or anything like a moped such as the Aerorider. Electric assist will be integrated into the drivetrain but not required to make a journey. I intend to illustrate some sort of service infrastructure where batteries are widely available, at grocery shops for example so a user may leave their empty battery and pick up a fresh one after the vela has been loaded with their shopping.
worth pointing out - I'm using a different steering system than usual, I know this may be controversial but I'm using a very lightweight hydraulic system. Similar at the wheel to any rack and pinion / tiller combination but no structure required across the body and also it allows for allot of nice design freedom for the controls. Basically sticking the steering for each side on the sides of the shell, integrating them, I think this is an obvious choice for a design aimed at mass production. It helps the interior to be cleaner, simpler and affords more storage space up front.
All hydraulic fittings from the steering are off the shelf fittings for brakes, such as compression fittings, hydraulic hose and so on. This off the bike shop shelf spares principle is something I'm applying at every mechanical area so it can utilise existing service infrastructure
ok opinions about any of the above would be greatly appreciated, and thanks Bruno for your extensive info
Hi Daniel,
A track that wide would make it impossible to get the velomobile into most bike sheds or cellars. I run a bike taxi service in Gothenburg, and our vehicle is exactly 100 cm wide. We've had a small hell in finding somewhere to park it, except in garages made for cars. Even a rare but standard 105 cm wide door could cause troubles, because you can't always open it more than 90 degrees. For a 110 cm width, you need at least a 125 cm door, and those are extremely rare. So if you live in the somewhat cramped innards of a city, you're left with hiring a garage space originally made for a car, or parking it outside in a bike rack. The first is very expensive, the second will cause you grief when the kids in the 'hood will sabotage your vehicle.
I'd say an electric system should either be used the whole time, or not be aboard at all. I see it as two different kinds of vehicles, but I may be wrong.
A hydraulic steering system sounds very interesting in my ears! Hopefully it will reduce both the weight and the complexity of the steering system as a whole. - What standard part(s) will you use as the last connection between the hydraulics and the 'real' steering? Where will you connect them?
30 mar 2010 kl. 23.17 skrev Daniel Short:
Thanks Bruno, useful stuff.
I'm aiming for 1 to 1.1 m track width so far, and i think the cycle paths are fine with that dimension. The slightly wider width gives me some freedom to increase centre of gravity a bit more for a higher profile.
Also, it won't be on a car scale, or anything like a moped such as the Aerorider. Electric assist will be integrated into the drivetrain but not required to make a journey. I intend to illustrate some sort of service infrastructure where batteries are widely available, at grocery shops for example so a user may leave their empty battery and pick up a fresh one after the vela has been loaded with their shopping.
worth pointing out - I'm using a different steering system than usual, I know this may be controversial but I'm using a very lightweight hydraulic system. Similar at the wheel to any rack and pinion / tiller combination but no structure required across the body and also it allows for allot of nice design freedom for the controls. Basically sticking the steering for each side on the sides of the shell, integrating them, I think this is an obvious choice for a design aimed at mass production. It helps the interior to be cleaner, simpler and affords more storage space up front.
All hydraulic fittings from the steering are off the shelf fittings for brakes, such as compression fittings, hydraulic hose and so on. This off the bike shop shelf spares principle is something I'm applying at every mechanical area so it can utilise existing service infrastructure
ok opinions about any of the above would be greatly appreciated, and thanks Bruno for your extensive info
-- Svara gärna EFTER orginaltexten och ta bort den delen som du inte svarar på. Info: http://lists.lysator.liu.se/mailman/listinfo/hpvs
Regards, Peter Markusson
Tel 031-12 71 64 Mob 0705-12 71 60
Adress: Långedragsvägen 61 C 426 71 Västra Frölunda
A Leitra at 98 cm is too wide for our bikepaths if you want to overtake other bikes. Stability isnt that great a problem. Even at 70 cm with a fairly upright seating position I have no problems. One quickly learns not to push a velo past its limits (after a few twowheel incidents).
Oh well. Good luck with the project.
Citat:
I'd say an electric system should either be used the whole time, or not be aboard at all. I see it as two different kinds of vehicles, but I may be wrong.
On the other hand, if the motor package could have a quick mount, this wouldn't be a problem. The trick is rather to separate the motor drive from the gears.
* With a crank/chain/mid drive it could be solved with a separate chain/belt system, like Matt Shumakers electric drive. Look at that compact package: http://www.recumbents.com/WISIL/shumaker/ebox/IMG_0134.jpg * With a hub motor, you could use the front wheel (or even both front wheels, on a tadpole) with a quick mount.
Regarding flags or lights, Frank Bokhorsts recumbent has combined them into one. Have a look at this "flag": http://tilting.org.za/bok/pic/ebike/lights.jpg
I invited Daniel over yesterday to let him look at the WAW and also helped him on his first velomobile-ride ever :p
Since I'm not the tallest person on the planet he had som problems to fit in it - but I do believe it was appriciated since the "recumbent smile" was clearly there...
Best of luck to your remaining work Daniel! (and Mia sends a big thank you for the chocolate...)
//David
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B D -
Christian Fasth -
Daniel Short -
David Rönnlund -
Mats Leidö -
Mikael Seierup -
Peter Markusson -
Petter Wingren-Rasmussen -
Quest 273