gtp November 2002

gtp@lists.lysator.liu.se

7 participants
7 discussions

Sample implementation of "abort"
by Andrew Derrick Balsa 06 Nov '02

06 Nov '02

Hi, OK, I have something that works and that seems half-decently coded. Here is a sample output for Randyplus with threaded genmove: ----- 30 genmove black =30 d1 40 genmove white 50 abort ?40 aborted =50 60 genmove white =60 e11 ----- If you ask me how I managed to type the abort: I introduced a 10-second "thinking" delay in the separate genmove thread. ;-) The implementation is coded using basic POSIX pthreads calls, so the basic algorithm should work on anything that has POSIX … [View More]

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Re: gtp digest, Vol 1 #76 - 2 msgs
by William M. Shubert 06 Nov '02

06 Nov '02

I think you are making this more complex than it needs to be: * If the command completes before the engine gets the abort, then the command succeeds and the abort fails. Commands which happen instantly, like "quit" or "boardsize", the abort never comes in time, so it's always the abort that fails. This makes sense because the whole point of the abort is not to undo things - instead, it is to get the GTP client to stop what it … [View More]is doing and start listening to commands from the server again. Whether the client stops because it completed the command (in which case the command returns success & the abort returns an error) or because it has aborted the command (in which case the command returns an error & the abort returns success) doesn't matter. * Since "abort" causes the previous command to fail (if the abort succeeds), and the GTP spec says that a failed command should not change the state of the engine, that does imply that if you can't return to the original engine state, you should continue working on the genmove then return an error for the abort. This is fine with me, but if we explicitly say that an aborted genmove can change the engine state that is fine with me also; I don't see that it matters whether you undo your engine state or not after an abort to a genmove. If you can, fine, if you can't, fine, as long as these state changes don't leave you with a broken engine! For example, in a "genmove/abort/genmove", if you have worked out some life&death situations in the first genmove, why not be able to use them in the 2nd? I do agree that abort needs to be 100% optional. That makes it easier; anything you can't abort, just finish the command and error out the abort. If you can't abort anything, just treat abort as an unrecognized command. A server must treat abort as a "hint" that it doesn't care about the output of the current command, so this "hint" is only needed to save time, not needed for correctness. On Mon, 2002-11-04 at 03:00, Andrew Derrick Balsa: I have thought about implementing it in the various small "xxxplus" engines. But I immediately hit a snag: it's quite obvious that the engine has to react differently according to what it was doing when it receives the "abort" command. What should it do if it receives the "abort" just after it received a "quit"? Or after receiving a "boardsize"? Let's assume it can only receive an "abort" after it has received a "genmove"... Should it "undo" anything it has done until now? What if it can't undo changes to some data structures? Should it fail? But the spec says that any failed command should not change the state of the engine... I confess I gave up after a few minutes. Receiving an "abort", either as a single character or as an (IMHO preferable) full word, in a separate thread, is easy in Linux. Making the engine react in a consistent manner, compatible with the rest of the GTP command set, would certainly require a lot of work. Perhaps I am wrong and somebody can come up with an unambiguous one-paragraph GTP spec for the "abort" command. I couldn't think of any way to do that. :-( Regards, -- Andrew D. Balsa andrebalsa(a)mailingaddress.org [View Less]

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Re: gtp digest
by A van Kessel 06 Nov '02

06 Nov '02

I still don't think we should allow the engine to return half-baked results when interrupted during genmove. Either succeed or fail. Bill schubert's scheme is cleaner , IMO. wrt the ordering of commands and responses: there is nothing new here: if we treat abort like any other command, it's responses should come in the right order. The reason I proposed the (optional) report_post_abortem_move is a previous post was to avoid the three valued logic that creeps in if we allow the genmove to … [View More]

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abort
by A van Kessel 04 Nov '02

04 Nov '02

Markus wrote: > I still think that there is no need to specify, if the engine should > return success or error to an aborted genmove. What I think wms meant (and what I tried to quote ...) was: every command should either succeed or fail. when it succeeds, it could output it results, if any. If it fails, it issues a simple error message/reason. Aborting a command should be considered an error (from the command's perspective): the aborted command should result in an "?123 command aborted\… [View More]

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interrupt
by A van Kessel 04 Nov '02

04 Nov '02

My attempt to summarise some of the points of discussion wrt the gtp-interrupt-feature: *) One-character (^C) vs full-command ("abort") interrupt. We seem to agree that this is a non-issue. This involves only the difference between one- character lookahead vs word- line- or bigger lookaheads. For the implementation, the size of the lookahead buffer is less important than the lookahead per se, since that will require the program to use some kind of polling, threading, or event-driven … [View More]input. (a related issue, the signal-style interrupt has already been abandoned) *) The dialog-style of the command. Bill Schubert's approach produces the cleanest interface: the interrupt command should behave just like any normal command, so the program should report separate results for both the interrupted command and the interrupt command itself. Both of them can either succeed or fail, seemingly independently. *) Semantics. *) should the aborted command ("genmove", in most cases) report the best move found sofar ? *) if so, should it also have "committed" the move to it's internal state ? *) if it doen not have any move yet, what should the reply be ? *) should the abort also undo the aborted command's side-effects ? Personally, I think the aborted command should return an error, and not some partial result. This will keep most of the semantics out of the protocol. a New proposal: Maybe a separate command could be introduced to query the best move post-abortum, but this could also introduce some fuzzy semantics. I could live with the following dialog <1 genmove B <2 abort >?1 aborted <=2 abort successful <3 report_post_abortum_move >=3 B E4 <4 play B E4 =4 Ok Of course, both abort and report_post_abortum_move are optional commands are optional and their presence can be verified with the valid_command command. For the report_post_abortum_move command, IMO it should either succeed and report exactly one move, or fail with an appropriate error message. ("no move available" or "not implemented" seem to be the only plausible errors) WRT the atomicity of other commands than genmove[Andrew Balsa]: IMO, We cannot implicitly expect implementations to support full undo. Allowing abortion of *any* command(reset,boardsize,quit, undo ...) without full undo would make no sense. The engine would be left in an undetermined state, and a reset/boardsize command would be the only way out, anyway. If the command (boardsize, quit, undo) cannot be undone, the cheapest way for the implementation would be to just ignore the abort , execute the command anyway, report it's success or error, and report "nothing to abort" or "can't abort" for the abort command. This will allow the driver program to blindly trust the error/success reply. (most commands will have completed execution before seeing the abort command, so the abort would fail, anyway) AvK [View Less]

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Re: interrupt
by William M. Shubert 04 Nov '02

04 Nov '02

I think that this "getc/putc works with single-character abort" is not really as big an advantage as it seems. getc/putc are simply a standard 1-character buffer on FILE *'s provided by posix. It would be about 10 lines to write a similar system that can buffer up entire lines, and that will work equally as well with single-character aborts or "abort" as a text command. The advantages of a readable text "abort" outweigh the simuler code in POSIX systems for single character aborts in my opinion.… [View More]

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stop_thinking
by A van Kessel 04 Nov '02

04 Nov '02

Marco Scheurer wrote: > makes me wonder if other optional commands would not be better: > start_thinking > stop_thinking > best_move I agree: once we allow "asynchronous" processing of commands, this wil be as easy as the abort-feature. It could have been the interface to the engine. At the moment, it is not. To allow simple implementations to talk GTP, we need the protocol to be "one line at a time" and blocking. The "abort" feature is an exception. It is optional, but we still … [View More]

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gtp November 2002