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SFX readers poll top 10 B7 eps
by Louise Rutter 26 Jan '02

26 Jan '02

And the results are: 1) Blake 2) Star One 3) Terminal 4) The Way Back 5) Sarcophagus 6) Rumours of Death 7) Orbit 8) Pressure Point 9) Sand 10) City at the Edge of the World Doesn't seem to vary a great deal from the favourite eps lists of people on this Lyst, although I think City normally scores more highly here and the inclusion of Sand comes as something of a surprise. Gambit should have been there instead. Louise

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Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and child
by Marian de Haan 26 Jan '02

26 Jan '02

Jacqui wrote: >Would Avon have anything against having said child fostered to a good home until it was past the 'poking sticky fingers where it shouldn't' stage? (Orac would second this idea no doubt).< He might decide to keep the child on Liberator just to annoy Orac (and Tarrant) :-) Marian

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Re: [B7L] Re: Re: Avon and child
by Ellynne G. 26 Jan '02

26 Jan '02

On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:47:42 +0100 Natasa Tucev <tucev(a)tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu> writes: > Ellynne, the last time you presented this scenario to us, you also > planned > that Cally be captured by Servalan, that Servie finds out Cally's > carrying > Avon's baby, and lots of nasty things that might follow. What > happened to > this idea? I got going on that during a very unpleasant time. Suffice it to say I couldn't seem to think of any kind of story where things didn't take pretty ugly turns. Very irritating. That one got stuck in my head and I wound up trying to exorcise it by throwing it at the lyst. Now, being back to my more or less bouyant self, I'd feel compelled to stomp the villain long before the story reached the point it was heading towards. Hmm, just noticed an oddity. Despite some cynical touches and so on, I like Disney and all that. Is this compatible with being a B7 fan? Am I courting the constant danger of tossing the Liberator crew somewhere over the rainbow, surrounded by pastel bunnies and anthropomorphic mice? Not to mention the much bigger danger of what certain people on the lyst might do if I did . . . . OK, OK, I'll _try_ to think of some evil danger lurking in this story, somewhere. Does Jarrierre on a predominantly green set and speaking into a microphone, saying, "Ignore the little man behind the curtain!" count? If not, I could add in some flying monkeys. And there's always the chance of Servalan trying to get someone to prick their finger on a spindle, isn't there? Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Re: Avon and child
by Ellynne G. 26 Jan '02

26 Jan '02

On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 04:47:28 +0000 "Sally M" <smanton(a)hotmail.com> writes: > Anna wrote: > "The Liberator isn't a very practical place to raise children, and > Cally's a > dedicated revolutionary--the only one in the crew besides Blake who > chose to > dedicate herself to fighting the Federation." > > Not so much, however, by the time Ellynne's talking about - she lost > a lot > of her fire when they lost Fearless Leader. Though I take your > point about > choosing not to go to Kaarn. > Just to say it - Kaarn - What, exactly, was the plan, there? The idea seems to be that they're going to set up a plant like we see on Auron. You know that one of the indicators of a country's stability is the ratio of dependents to providers? Normally, that works out as children and the elderly to midrange adults, although unemployment and disability can be worked in. I don't remember what was considered the danger range right off, but 5,000 to 2? Actually, since I understood that they had DNA or embryos or whatever for 5,000, the possibility of twins, triplets, etc. increasing that to several thousand more to 2 is there. So, I see three possibilities. 1) Although we don't see evidence of it, the Aurons have technology (as the Clone Masters seemed to) to imprint the needed life experiences, knowledge, or what have you on the growing generation (who may, then, grow really, really fast). Either the Liberator has great resources or they stopped off at Kmart for the "Build a New Civilization" blue light special. 2) They may have _potential_ for 5,000 individuals, but they're planning on raising them at a more normal pace. Lots of problems they may not have thought of. First, I know early American history and small colonies with limited resources (and amateurs in charge of them) have horrible mortality rates. A simple accident can easily turn fatal - and there are only _two_ adults. 3) Implications of the discussion on the flight deck to the contrary, Kaarn is not uninhabited. About the only people I'd trust to set the Auron colony down with would be the Clone Masters (their high respect for life would hopefully apply to nonhumans) and they have the technology necessary to help people armed with the embryos but still in need of the rest of the starter kit. Perhaps they only let it be thought they had been destroyed (avoiding future pressure to make Blake clones, etc). The point is, since I don't know what Kaarn would be like, it's hard to come up with reasons Cally may have chosen not to go with them. In the first scenario, Cally may have been keenly aware how little they needed her help. Or, with exile being the proper Auron response to failure, she may have felt she _shouldn't_ go with them. Or it could even be that Avon's lame joke about why Cally wasn't going with them was to cover up the harsher fact that Cally (who, technically, was one of the reasons her people were killed [no Cally to bring the Liberator, then Servalan could have found an easier way to con them into cloning her children]) wasn't welcome. Blaming her or being angry with her for what happened doesn't even have to be something Frantor thinks is right. If it's just the way she feels, Cally has always said she can receive thoughts from one of her own people. If it's scenario 2, keeping people with big prices on their heads _away_ from the already struggling colony is a good idea. Having one adult away from the colony as a potential backup if things go really wrong is also a good idea. If it's 3, Cally still has a price on her head and may also feel everyone's survival chances are increased if the Federation is stopped. So, Cally could avoid Kaarn without it reflecting on her maternal instincts. As for why I think she would have had them in the story I outlined: 1) She's the survivor of genocide that wiped out her whole family. I think that would have to weigh in on any decision she makes. 2) I may be projecting my own protective attitude towards children onto her, but it seems to fit. If a child winds up in my care, short term or long term, I get fiercely protective. It's the thing about knowing there isn't anyone but you to watch out for them. The 5,000 were taken care of (it seems like a lame plan, but that wasn't her fault). For this child, she would be it. 3) I think the fact Avon was the biological father would also effect her decision. Cally would feel obligated to a child of Avon's that somehow landed on the Liberator even if he wanted nothing to do with it and the mother was someone she hated. 4) Aside from all that, I agree she's the most likely of the crew to have an ethical problem with abortion. As for Avon, he wouldn't like this at all - but he still had a pretty good track record in S3 of (however much he grumbled) sticking by the others when they absolutely insisted on doing something he thought was idiotic in the extreme. If Cally was in this situation, I think he'd wind up trying to find a solution they could all live with. Of course, he'd _want_ to drop the baby of at Kaarn or with his brother or _something_. But 9 months is a long time. Plenty of room for plot complications. As for Orac, part of this tied into an idea where Orac was calculating ways to make Avon act in ways that improved his (and Orac's) survival chances, not do things that would blow up the ship, etc. Of course, if this _was_ part of Orac's plan and Avon found out, Orac might be reincarnated via garbage compressor into a new life as a paper weight . . . . Yeah. I know. But still no plot to hang these ideas on. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: Avon and child
by jacquispeel＠netscape.net 25 Jan '02

25 Jan '02

"Sally M" <smanton(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >Anna wrote: >"The Liberator isn't a very practical place to raise children, and Cally's a >dedicated revolutionary--the only one in the crew besides Blake who chose to >dedicate herself to fighting the Federation." > >Not so much, however, by the time Ellynne's talking about - she lost a lot >of her fire when they lost Fearless Leader. Though I take your point about >choosing not to go to Kaarn. > >It's something to remember, of course, that being 'Earth-Mother'-y does no >necessarily equate with being motherly in the ordinary sense, and Cally, not >by nature a warm person, is emotionally distant during the latter part of S3 >anyway. She would be conscientious of course, but mightn't *necessarily* >bond with what would be as much a half-alien offspring forced on her as it >would be to Avon. > Would Avon have anything against having said child fostered to a good home until it was past the 'poking sticky fingers where it shouldn't' stage? (Orac would second this idea no doubt). Jacqui -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

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Re: [B7L] Re: Re: Avon and child
by Natasa Tucev 25 Jan '02

25 Jan '02

Ellynne, the last time you presented this scenario to us, you also planned that Cally be captured by Servalan, that Servie finds out Cally's carrying Avon's baby, and lots of nasty things that might follow. What happened to this idea? N.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Character ages
by Natasa Tucev 25 Jan '02

25 Jan '02

Stephen wrote: > >Another possibility is that Blake's R&D work on the >Aquitar project was done in a university >(post-doctoral work, say) and he got involved in the >rebel movement via a radical student society. A group >of younger people would be less likely to see a 27 >year old as too young to be a resistance leader. Well, yes, this coincides with my private 'fanon'. I also tend to assume that there was a certain deal of disagreement between Blake and Foster - that Foster was in favour of some kind of peaceful civil disobedience (like the meddling with food rations suggested in TWB), while Blake favoured armed resistance and naturally, this was more attractive for the younger members of the party. They may have split into two fractions, which might explain why Foster wasn't caught when Blake was. N.

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Pacey on tv
by Mac4781＠aol.com 25 Jan '02

25 Jan '02

Apologies if this has already been sent to the list. Steven Pacey will appear in "Murder in Mind" on Saturday evening, Jan. 26th. BBC1 9:20 pm With thanks to Philippa, Jennifer and the Horizon Newsflash for sending me this information, Carol

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Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Avon and the System
by Ellynne G. 25 Jan '02

25 Jan '02

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 06:38:34 +0000 "Sally M" <smanton(a)hotmail.com> writes: > > Mmmmm ... that doesn't sound *at all* like Avon to me. I would > think he'd > be fairly indifferent to the child at least until it was born - I > really > don't see him getting gooey over anyone's pregnancy (not even had > *Anna* had > his child). Certaibly not one he was a passive and unwitting > 'specimen' to > (I think he'd loathe that). Possibly. When I started working with this idea (which, I admit, hasn't really gone anywhere), I was thinking more in terms of the interaction between Avon and Cally. The scene would go something like this: Avon connected another wire and adjusted the power settings, scanning the readout. He was still 10% off of optimum. The problem wasn't in the magnetic resonance. He'd checked that. Maybe in the imaging sensors? The crystals were all aligned properly, but what if he'd missed some fracturing? He started to test them, one by one, barely noticing when the door opened behind him. "Avon?" Cally said. "Are you done with Orac?" Avon said without turning around. "It's about time. I need it to analyze these readouts." "I - yes - I - Avon, I need to talk to you." No, it wasn't the crystals. Maybe in the spectrum analysis? "What is it?" "The tests I had Orac run. They - they were medical tests." The stress in her voice finally registered. Avon looked up from his work bench, frowning. Cally was pale, the skin across her face rigidly tight with the effort of holding onto her normal calm. "Medical tests?" he asked, a small knot of uneasiness starting somewhere inside him, though he wasn't certain why. Theoretically, there wasn't anything but old age that was incurable. Radiation, poison, plague, they'd survived it all. There shouldn't be anything the ship's medical scanners could tell show her that they couldn't at least hope to find a cure for. "What kind of medical tests?" "I -" she hesitated, swallowed. Closing her eyes, she finally forced the words out in a whisper. "I'm pregnant, Avon." Avon heard the words, but they didn't make sense. "What?" She opened her eyes, agitated. "That is the human word, isn't it? Pregnant? To have a child - inside me - growing - _my_ child. Is that the word?" "I - yes, that's the word - _pregnant_?" Tarrant or Vila, if he thought of them at all, were dismissed. He'd seen how Cally was around them. She thought of them as friends, nothing more. Besides, she wouldn't be here talking to him if either of them were responsible. The knot in his stomach turned to lead. Cally had been on her own in enough dangerous situations, facing Federation guards, outlaws and madmen. But she'd never said - he'd never thought - No, he realized, he'd never thought. "The father?" Avon asked. He could see the strain on her. For a moment, struggling to say it, she seemed like glass ready to shatter under an enormous weight. But he never expected her answer. "You are, Avon." Avon blinked, trying to find another meaning in that. "Cally . . . ." he began, wondering how to explain the facts of life to a sheltered Auron. But Cally wasn't quite that sheltered. "The Ultra," she whispered. There was a long silence as that sunk in. "Oh," Avon said at last. The Ultra, bizarre aliens interested in nothing but collecting information - and physical subjects - for their encyclopedia. He and Cally had both spent a fair amount of time unconscious in their labs. Awaiting disposal, after their minds were drained, Avon had thought. Apparently, he'd been wrong. "Orac - Orac was certain. About the time, I mean. And the DNA -" "I understand about DNA," Avon said. He rubbed his forehead. "Did Orac have any theories why the Ultra did this?" Cally shrugged helplessly. "Orac thought - humans and Aurons are similar but no one . . . no one's ever proven if we're different species or subspecies or . . . . Related species can interbreed, but . . . ." Her voice trailed off. "I understand," Avon said, sparing her the need to try and say more. It made sense. And the Ultra couldn't have expected to see any Aurons after Cally. She was almost the last. "What . . ." Avon groped for words, ". . . what are you planning to do about it?" he asked, not even sure what he meant. Cally seemed to shrink back into herself, but her voice was fierce. "Avon, this is my _child_. I have to - I _can't_-" Avon had a brief, intense memory of Cally's clone sister, Zelda. She had died on Auron rather than abandon the children entrusted to her care. And she had been the last family Cally had. All the rest, her parents - almost her entire race - were dead. She couldn't do anything but fight for its life. "I understand," he said. Which is about as far as I've taken it. Avon's initial involvement is more from the fact that Cally is about at the end of her emotional resources (and, frankly, I'm not sure what her physical resources are at this point. Going by her small build alone, she's at high risk for all sorts of delivery complications and there's plenty of room for more worries [after all, if she knows the _Auron_ word for pregnant it's probably only because she'd heard Zelda use it discussing her work. She grew up on a planet where no doctors she ever dealt with would think of protecting a patient's ability to bear children as a priority and where they might even have reasons to damage it (giving her some kind of boosters for her immune system when she went into exile)]). I still think of this as AU, mainly because I think it would temporarily derail Avon from going after Blake (I do like the thought of him telling Zen to be quiet before Zen can explain that the incoming call says it's from Blake). Whether he feels paternal or not, he wouldn't have time for other problems while he came to grips with the situation. As for Avon as a parent, as a _single_ parent he'd be pretty bad. Oh, I think he'd do his best. I just don't have much faith in his ability to provide decent emotional support without a lot of coaching. As for putting Cally down on Kaarn, it doesn't quite work for me. Besides, I think, once Avon decides to look out for someone, he likes to have them where he can see on a regular basis that they haven't gotten captured or killed. That's just me. Since I haven't been able to work this into a story (as I said, the whole problem is a conversation or two that are rather fun to write followed by Avon doing his best to derail any further complications or dangers resulting from this situation [sure, he may decide to find a decent doctor for Liberator but, since he'd probably only take someone Orac and every other resource he could muster cleared as gifted but nonthreatenting, this doesn't look like a fruitful plot device either]). Ah, well. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: Re: Avon and child
by Betty Ragan 25 Jan '02

25 Jan '02

Warning! Much incoherent character-junkie rambling ahead! :) Dana Schilling wrote: > Ummm, no spoilers or anything, but the current-in-US-season of > a show with a protagonist who isn't always terrible nice either > has him getting completely sappy about a baby. I believe I know which show you mean, although it's not one that I've been watching. What this makes *me* think of is my current-favorite show, _Farscape_ (which I know I'm always wibbling on about, but hey). You've got D'argo, who's a huge hulking warrior guy: impatient, impulsive and much more inclined towards head-breaking than anything touchy-feely. And then we find out that he's got a kid, and (even though that particular relationship ultimately, um, doesn't turn out very well) there's an early episode where he's hallucinating that his son is there with him and is still a small child. And we suddenly see this tough, often rather immature barbarian warrior guy turning into a patient, gentle, utterly doting father. And, while it's surprising, it's totally believable. (Much credit due to Anthony Simcoe, who plays D'Argo; a *terrific* actor, and a B7 fan to boot!) Anyway, the point is, yes, people (real and fictional) *do* often act differently and sometimes surprisingly when they're dealing with babies, particularly their own babies. And it can be done believably on-screen, and, presumably, in fanfic. But I *still* simply can't pciture Avon entering into the spirit of pattycake. :) In a different post, Helen Krummenacker wrote: > I suspect the Snarly One would be undemonstrative, but would besides > protecting the child, take a great deal of interest in preparing baby > for life. In fact, that would be one reason he wouldn't be very > affectionate-- he sees the world as cold and wants junior to be ready > for the feelings of rejection etc that come in life. I definitely agree with this. It reminds me of my ex-boyfriend's dad (who, I ought to add, is nevertheless a considerably warmer person than Avon). He used to do things like taking the kids out into the woods and getting them to navigate the way home, because "someday your life may depend on being able to do this," and just generally attempted to turn every possible situation into a survival-skills lesson. Which is fine, until you get to the point where it becomes: "I don't care if you're frightened or you don't know what you're doing or you don't like this game. Suck it up and stop snivelling. If this was for real, you'd be dead by now." The ex occasinally used to do that sort of thing to me, and even for an adult, it's not a pleasant experience (certainly not when it's coming from someone whose respect and love you place a great emotional value on). It can definitely mess up a little kid. But it's *exactly* the sort of thing I can imagine Avon doing. I think I've said this before at some point, and nobody seemed to agree with me, but, heck, I'll say it again, anyway. I think Avon has a definite streak of "cruel to be kind" attitude. I think we see it in "Trial," for instance. My interpretation of that episode is that Avon never seriously did consider ditching Blake for a second. Indeed, he seems to me by that point to have pretty much made and accepted a conscious choice to stay with Blake. And, while I know that not everybody agrees about this, I really *do* think that the main reason he stays is because he cares about Blake, a lot more than he would ever admit. And yet, he really is incredibly cruel to Blake in "Trial," taking all Blake's pain and guilt over Gan, sticking a barbed knife into it and twisting. Why? Because if Blake hurts enough, if the experience is painful enough, maybe it will keep him from making the same mistakes a second time, and getting himself or the rest of them killed. And for Avon, I think, that's the most important thing. He regards emotions as trivial at best and as a weakness at worst, and considers survival the highest goal. So it stands to reason that when it comes to people he loves (friend, lover, child, whatever), their survival is going to take precedence in his mind over their emotional happiness. If he has to hurt Blake emotionally to help keep him safe physically, so be it. And I think he'd likely take very much the same attitude towards a child. I can see him being very, very hard on any child of his, even taking the attitude that having them experience and survive a little emotional pain is a good thing, a step towards building the emotional toughness that he also considers to be a survival trait. Poor kid. The good news is, if it were also Cally's child, I could easily see her as a moderating influence on Avon, and see her providing the safety net of unconditional love and acceptance that kids need and that I don't think Avon could really provide... -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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