Blakes7 May 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

84 participants
897 discussions

Re: McVeigh
by Ellynne G. 13 May '01

13 May '01

JMO, but can I compare this to John Brown and Lincoln? I think it would be useful since slavery is pretty uniformly condemned but that doesn't mean everyone who was against it was an angel in disguise. Now, I look at the 600,000 casualties of the U.S. Civil War and think it was a tragedy but a justified one. If that's what it took, then that's what it took (and, by the time Lincoln was in office, that was definitly what it took. I think the greater tragedy is that slavery couldn't be ended before things reached that point). OTOH, John Brown had a lot fewer casualties and was, IMO, a terrorist nutcase. What was the difference? John Brown was a man who could kill an underage kid with the phrase, "Nits make lice." That really was his attitude. The kid wasn't a threat to him and wasn't likely to become a threat to him - I doubt Brown knew or cared if the kid was even part of a slave owning family or just with the wrong crowd at the wrong time. Although there are good arguments about Star One, Blake otherwise didn't go charging into planets without what we would recognize as legitimate cause or without being asked. We see them raid military targets, attempt reasonably peaceful interaction with nonFederation worlds (rarely lasted, but they didn't start the fight), and get involved in military actions on planets like Albion (although, with a military presence of one, I'm not sure if that counts). On Horizon, I'd say they actually worked within the system (although it wasn't their idea). Brown, OTOH, made a habit of rescuing people who hadn't necessarily asked to be rescued and, then, he made insufficient efforts to help them afterwards. Not to disregard the evils of slavery but, if you're going to get rid of slave owners, leaving the slaves in slave owning territory with no clear way to escape to free territory (which they may not be keen on if they have relatives in the area or for other reasons [that fear of flying to evils we know not of and possibly Stockholm syndrome or learned helplessness]). At Harper's Ferry, he just expected the slaves to rise up. Instead, he wound up in a hostage situation where the hostages included slaves who seem to have been much more afraid of him than of their owners. So, civilian targets, targets that served no purpose in his claimed plans, an arrogance toward the people he intended to free nearly as great as those he claimed to free them from, no noticeable regard for the lives of others, and a tendency to feel it was OK to wipe out anyone who disagreed with him whether they were a threat or not. Although civilians suffered terribly in the war, it did concentrate on military targets. Targets were generally picked with at least arguable purpose. Furthermore, Lincoln may have been unwavering, but no one has sincerely questioned his humility or his 'malice towards none.' He was always quick to pardon (and I mean that in the presidential sense as well as others. Soldiers who had been condemned to die had a remarkable survival rate when relatives were able to bring the matter to Lincoln's attention in time). If I were to pick between the two, I would say Blake (though lacking the soulful, craggy face) was closer to Lincoln than to Brown. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing (was Gan)
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > > And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that > >he's sent to >Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. > > > > > > A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation > >aren't exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice > >system. What we see of their justice system relates to the hardcore criminals: the politicos, the 6-million-credit embezzlers, the murderers. Vila even says he's an habitual offender. "I've had my head adjusted by the best in the business. It just won't stay adjusted." > >The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is > >Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. Most successful criminals have fresh honest faces. That's what makes them successful criminals. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > Jenny said... > > > >He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. > > > > > > Accepted. Thank you. But I'm not sure what more that proves other than the limiter > >is not 100% reliable. Sorry, don't buy it. If you are a scriptwriter you don't put something in just for the hell of it. Also, you notice, it proves Gan lied. > >In Buffy, Spike realises he has to actually *think* about hurting > >someone to trigger his chip. There needs to be intention. Leaving aside the fact that Buffy is a totally different programme, I actually think that's wrong. Spike can kill demons with impunity, but if he even points a replica gun at a human as a joke the chip triggers. Secondly, if just *thinking* about killing someone is going to activate the chip, then Spike would be in constant pain all of the time. Thirdly, after he gets the chip in, there is no instance of him killing a human under any circumstance. . Gan's limiter might have a similar problem-- if the situation is so severe that he is > >acting on instinct rather than clear thought, it doesn't recognise the > >intent to kill? You mean like suddenly killing a guard that has killed his woman? Well, if that's what he was convicted of then giving him a limiter that totally fails to take that possiblity into account is a nonsense. Different nueral path, doesn't hit the block. Just a > >possibility. Not a very convincing one though. Also his killing of the monk in Cygnus Alpha is a deliberate act. Kara has been killed by a spear, Gan uses a spear (possibly the same spear) to kill the monk in return. When we see Gan killing the monk he isn't at all irrational, he even obeys Blake's orders to break off the attack and follows him and Vila out the door. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Engine room
by Steve Rogerson 13 May '01

13 May '01

In a story Paula and I are writing, we need to set a couple of scenes in the Liberator's engine room. However, we don't think it was ever called the engine room. Can anyone remember what if anything it was called. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] Marriage and the federation
by Tavia 13 May '01

13 May '01

Sally wrote: >...the overriding impression I get is that real, open commitment >of whatever kind might in fact be less common than in our >own society. An interesting point, which seems borne out by the few examples of couples within the series. Especially interesting, perhaps, as there appear to be two lines of evidence that suggest that the Administration might wish to promote *higher* birth rates among Federation citizens: (1) Population depletion on Earth -- whatever the catastrophe that led to the Domes, one would imagine it entailed a substantial decrease in the Earth's population; (2) Large number of new worlds to colonise. So perhaps stable commitments reduce the birth rate? Tavia

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Sentencing
by Leia Fee 13 May '01

13 May '01

I wrote.... > A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation aren't > exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice system. Then Helen wrote... >In California you could get a life sentence for theft if it's the third >time you are caught and the dollar value is high enough. I never knew that. How high is 'high enough'? <curious> >Vila was in and out of the system several times before he was made a lifer, or so I >interpreted his comments on his past. Yep I agree. I suppose when fiddling with his mind didn't work and locking him up for a finite time didn't work they resorted to a life sentence. Now I'm wondering what determines whether a convicted criminal gets their mind messed with or gets locked up. Age? The Federation didn't seem to have any qualms about messing with the kids memories to get them to incriminate Blake. Seriousness of the offence? Repeated offences? >The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is >Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. And keen to help Blake and had been avoiding the drugs in the food on the London. Interesting. Leia

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Limiters in General
by Leia Fee 13 May '01

13 May '01

Helen wrote... >In Buffy, Spike realizes he has to actually *think* about hurting >someone to trigger his chip. There needs to be intention. Gan's limiter >might have a similiar problem-- if the situation is so severe that he is >acting on instict rather than clear thought, it doesn't recognize the >intent to kill? Different nueral path, doesn't hit the block. Just a >possibility. An interesting one. That apparent killing on Cygnus Alpha has always bothered me but that explanation fits quite nicely. Also fits with the 'I was enjoying that' in Redemption(?) - until he realised what he was doing and had to stop. Leia

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Re: Limiters in general
by Helen Krummenacker 13 May '01

13 May '01

> Jenny said... > >He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. > > Accepted. But I'm not sure what more that proves other than the limiter is > not 100% reliable. > In Buffy, Spike realizes he has to actually *think* about hurting someone to trigger his chip. There needs to be intention. Gan's limiter might have a similiar problem-- if the situation is so severe that he is acting on instict rather than clear thought, it doesn't recognize the intent to kill? Different nueral path, doesn't hit the block. Just a possibility.

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Re: [B7L] Marriage and the federation
by Alison Page 13 May '01

13 May '01

Ellyne said - >Look, we all know I'm the little arch-conservative. Do you think >arch-conservatives are blind to social injustices? >Or that welfare 'reforms' that seem likely to >penalize children when they kick in in the very near future don't make me >furious? I don't know any other arch-conservatives to whom those two descriptions would apply which is why I wouldn't have classified you in that category. I would have called you right of central, certainly, but I wouldn't have put you with the arch-coservative poeple one sees on other lists who rant on about 'Let the babies die, it's Darwinian'. I know you aren't in that group. >I know I'm not always the best at expressing myself, but have I really >done that poor a job? OK, well you did pick up that I was a bit pissed off, but in fact it was simpler than that. I'm in a very long-standing partnership, which is not formal marriage, and I took exception to the undercurrent coming from a bunch of people on the list, that a relationship which is not formalised by State approval means the people have less respect for each other, or less commitment, or are dislinclined to care for their children, or whatever. Alison

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Re: Careers
by Helen Krummenacker 13 May '01

13 May '01

> Jenna as free-lance pilot, hiring herself out for the more adventurous and > dangerous jobs, is an obvious choice. I think she'd also make a decent > investigative journalist - always asking "What's going on?" :-) > And has a nice combination of cynicism, skepticism *and* a desire to believe the cynics wrong. She'd be good at digging to the heart of political things without trying to make her reputation at the cost of an innocent by distorting facts. > >

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Blakes7 May 2001