Blakes7 May 2001

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84 participants
897 discussions

Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

>Stephen Date wrote: > > > > > > >--- Jenny wrote: > > > > > > > > >The limiter is clearly both very rare (we don't > > > > see it anywhere else, > > > > none > > > > > >of the others have ever heard of it before) > > > > > > > > They haven't encountered it because they have had no > > > > reason to. They are not > > > > psychopathic killers. Well not in the sense that > > > > Gan is anyway. > > > > > >Surely if the Federation used Limiters on anything > > >like a regular basis, the others would have heard of > > >it. Vila plainly hasn't heard > > >of limiters in Time Squad and he is pretty familiar > > >with the penal system. All that it prove is that they are infrequently used, and the person who has one doesn't brag about it. Also: GAN: It's almost as if Zen has a limiter? VILA: A limiter? GAN: Something that stops him from helping us to much. Or maybe it's someone who stops him. VILA: Gan if you're trying to scare me you're succeeding. Just because Vila says "A limiter?" it doesn't follow that he doesn't know what one is. He could be thinking, "Oh F**k, a Limiter. And why is Gan talking about it? Could he be a psychopathic killer? Oh, well... I wonder what's for tea." > > > > > >My guess is that it was an experimental thing, > > > > and that prisoners were > > > > > >allocated to the experimenters to work on. > > > > Scientists in Nazi Germany > > > > were > > > > > >allowed to carry out all kinds of experiments on > > > > prisoners, and I can see > > > > > >the same sort of morality working just fine in > > > > the Federation. > > > > > > > > A theory not supported by the evidence. Kayn and > > > > Renor knows what a limiter > > > > is and speak of it in a very matter-of-fact way-- > > > > not as if it's something > > > > rare. Are they in on the experiment too? > > > > > >Kayn and Renor are scientists at an experimental > > >research station. Kayn is the top neuro-surgeon in his > > >field. Renor must be good otherwise Kayn wouldn't have > > >him as his assistant. The rules of neuro-surgery apply > > >on earth and on XK-72. It is entirely possible that > > >they would recognise an experimental device. He doesn't call it an "experimental device" though, does he? They both talk as if it is commonplace. > > >Incidentally Renor's reaction is not matter of fact, > > >rather it is one of horror. Horror that such things are used, not horror at discovering that such a thing existed. > > >It is also worth observing that personality alteration > > >is a developed science in the Federation - witness > > >Blake's persona in "The Way Back" compared to his > > >normal persona in Space Fall onwards. If Gan was a > > >vicious killer, surely they would alter his entire > > >personality rather than just knock out one part of his > > >brain. The implant does alter his entire personality. >Gan appears to be a rather gentle person, when > > >not in a combat situation. That's right. But look at what he's like *in* combat. Grinning, usually. > > > > But to test > > > > > >something designed to stop people killing, > > > > > > > > It manifestly isn't designed to stop him killing. > > > > > >Surely that is exactly what it does. I forget Gan's > > >exact words when he falls out of the alien capsule in > > >Time Squad but they're along the lines of "Limiter > > >implant...impossible for me to kill". What Gan says in this scene is very interesting. Reprint the transcript and I'll go through it with you :-) >Later on in Time > > >Squad when he tries to shoot the alien he is unable to > > >do so. The limiter stops him. For an explanation see my correspondence with Fiona Moore, April 6th onwards. >In Deliverance he says "When it comes to > > >killing, remember my limiter implant". Well he would wouldn't he? To maintain the fiction. > > > > > > >It is entirely possible that after the experiment has > > >been conducted Gan was then sentenced to penal > > >servitude on Cygnus Alpha. After all, once they've > > >established it works they're not going to keep him > > >hanging around. Well rationalised, but see my comments about the Kayne/Renor conversation above. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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RE: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Tavia 14 May '01

14 May '01

Helen wrote about the Federation administration: >They fear political crimes so much they >would rather covertly slaughter large groups than try to brainwash >them.This from a society that appears to have no official >death penalty (I may be wrong). Two possible exceptions: (1) Glynd, Morag and Havant discuss eliminating Blake rather than deporting him. The dialogue runs as below and one interpretation might suggest trial and execution for dissidence, though possibly a more likely one is another 'transporter accident'. HAVANT Can't he be eliminated? MORAG No, he's a symbol of opposition to the Administration. ... MORAG His death could be used by the dissidents. They need a hero. Alive or dead, Blake could be it. HAVANT Difficult. I suppose my department could infect him, some rapidly terminal disease. Would his natural death help? GLYND I don't think so. MORAG What we need is something to discredit him. If he could be deported to Cygnus Alpha .... (2) Travis is sentenced to execution in a Federation military court in Trial. Not only would I argue that this counts as the death penalty existing under Federation law, but the wording of the sentence suggests that some non-military criminals were executed. SAMOR We cannot find it in our hearts to absolve you in any way of the responsibility for these murders. The sentence of this tribunal is, therefore, that you should be stripped of all rank and privileges, that you be dishonorably dismissed the service, and that you then be executed for the common criminal you have shown yourself to be. Have you anything to say? Tavia

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Re: sentencing
by Helen Krummenacker 14 May '01

14 May '01

> Leia wrote.... > > A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation aren't > > exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice > system. > Then Helen wrote... > >In California you could get a life sentence for theft if it's the third > >time you are caught and the dollar value is high enough. > > I never knew that. How high is 'high enough'? > I'm not sure what amount kicks it from misdemeanor to felony. Basically any felony, violent or *not*, is included as a strike in the three strikes law. Prosceuters have also, I think, sometimes counted felonies from the same series of events as seperate felonies in order to try for a 'three strikes' convinction. Anyone sentenced on a 'third strike' is supposed to be in jail for life. The prison industry is doing great business. > > >Vila was in and out of the system several times before he was made a > lifer, or so I > >interpreted his comments on his past. > > Yep I agree. I suppose when fiddling with his mind didn't work and locking > him up for a finite time didn't work they resorted to a life sentence. > Yes. In his case, the system appeared to be working more or less justly. After all, he couldn't stand the idea of life without theivery even if it included safety and a woman who loved him. So he seems pretty much beyond redemption. Now I'm wondering what determines whether a convicted criminal gets their mind messed with or gets locked up. Age? The Federation didn't seem to have any qualms about messing with the kids memories to get them to incriminate Blake. Seriousness of the offence? Repeated offences? Guessing from what little we've been given (Vila's treaments and imprisonment, the Federation's use of mind controls in general and desire to keep a labor force), the first step for nonviolent, nonpolitical crimes would be take them into custody and try to revise their minds to become law abiding citizens. It might even be possible to do this much without a trial-- after all, if you are already law-abiding, it won't change you, and if you are really guilty, it's necessary for you to become socially redeemed. Violent crimes may be harder to treat by conditioning. I would guess whatever methods they use work better on intellectual than emotional impulses toward crime; thus, the introduction of the limiter, and the failure of anti-theft conditioning to work on Vila, who has an emotional addiction to theft, rather than simple greed. Thus violent crimes are more likely to get a prison sentence-- likewise, sexual abberration like the pedophilia (the false charges on Blake). The behavior is more ingrained and harder to change. Then there is the political angle. I'm not sure there is a standard policy on this, and obviously, the Federation's real actions and its publicized ones are different. They fear political crimes so much they would rather covertly slaughter large groups than try to brainwash them. This from a society that appears to have no official death penalty (I may be wrong). >The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is >Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. And keen to help Blake and had been avoiding the drugs in the food on the London. Interesting. Now that you mention it, my best guess on Nova-- the son of one of the dissidents in the slaughter Blake narrowly avoided. He has the knowlege and political sympathies of his family, but rather than kill a youth with no active involvement, or take the risk of insufficient brainwashing, they sent him off on trumped up charges. Unlike Blake, Nova is not protesting innocence loudly but I can think of good reasons why. 1. He actually likes the idea of being sent to a prison planet-- there, he hopes, they can create a freer society. Australia turned out all right. :) 2. He's young; he's pretty... might as well let the inmates think he's got a violent record. 3. He also knows it won't do him any good. 4. He wasn't framed for anything as detrimental to his honour as Blake was. Of course, there are plenty of other reasons for him to be incarcerated, but given, as you say, he knew to avoid the drugs without being told and actually volunteered to join Blake's group, political crimes seem most likely.

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Re: [B7L] Marriage and the federation
by Sally Manton 13 May '01

13 May '01

One thing that struck me, rather than the formal vs informal commitment thing, was the striking *lack* of any kind of lasting, non-blood-kin commitments for any of the main characters except Gan. One can make out reasons why none of them show signs of serious relationships, whether legalised or not ... Jenna and Vila have rather precarious and unstable lifestyles, which might make maintaining one harder; Cally? Well, we don't know that one-on-one relationships are something an Auron telepath would even consider, and as a guerilla, she might fight shy anyway; Dayna was too young and isolated on Sarran (I do not *want* to call whatever she had with Justin a serious relationship); Soolin - like Jenna, an unstable lifestyle plus (possibly?) serious trust problems arising from the trauma in her childhood; Avon was involved with Anna, but that seems to have been a covert relationship, since she *was* married; also, he does not commit at all easily; Tarrant was in the military (that normally doesn't preclude marriage, but might make meeting the right woman harder); Travis as well, plus he's wedded to his obsession. Servalan's wedded to power; Blake's devoted to the cause of the common man, and would be too aware of the dangers inherent in his chosen path to risk it. All quite good reasons, *but* the overriding impression I get is that real, open commitment of whatever kind might in fact be less common than in our own society. JMO. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] iains episode reviews: TWB
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Harriet Monkhouse wrote: About Blake in TWB> > > >I don't think they were setting him up as such, but they've good reason > >to watch him: > >One, they're not quite convinced the reprogramming will hold (and they > >turn out to be right); two, they suspect that the resistance will have > >the same idea and try to win him back, so he's good bait to reel them > >in. Both good points, well made. Watching those particular scenes back, it does seem interesting that the Security forces make their strike against the rebels on the day Blake is contacted and taken outside to one of their meetings. Also Dev Tarrant knows Blake from the old days, so he was possibly the traitor who set Blake and Foster up the first time around. The trap and bait motif appears again and again throughout all 52 episodes of B7. In TWB we have the trap set by the rebels for Blake. Tarrant's trap set for the rebels. The Federation's trap set for Blake when he returns to the city. The legal trap set for Blake by Morag, Glynd and Dr Havant. Blake's protestations of his innocence are a trap for Varon, drawing him into resistance. The trap set for Varon and his wife in the office of the public records computer. (The administration could easily have altered the school attendances and central clinic records to remove the evidence. But they don't. It's a trap. The central clinic files are classified. Varon has to bribe the official. That means Varon has the potential to be a resister. The records keeper is either undercover security, or just a good citizen doing his duty. Don't forget, even Blake threatens to report the rebels to the Administration. As in Nazi Germany, the culture of "neighbourhood watch" has become an epidemic. The final trap I suppose, is Varon's innocence. Everything he does is futile because everyone he turns to is in some way a part of the corrupt system he is trying to expose. You can't expose the system, because there is no one to expose the system too. Except the TV viewer that is. Seven traps. Funny number that. Jenny > >"Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." - Lysator 14.5.01 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Steve Rogerson wrote: >Jenny says about Spike: "Thirdly, after he gets the chip >in, there is no instance of him killing a human under any circumstance." > >Wrong. When Druscilla makes her brief return, she shows him that the chip's >power >is all in his mind and he can overcome it with willpower. He does just that >and >kills a human. Oh well, you people who have Sky, you know everything :-). Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Blakes7 digest, Vol 1 #421 - 9 msgs
by Helen Krummenacker 13 May '01

13 May '01

Please be careful about attributing statements to me that I have not made-- if I discuss a matter with someone, and botoh sides are attributed to me, it is disrespectful of the other person's responses and also puts me in the position of being held accountable for someone else's words.

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Re: sentencing (was Gan)
by Helen Krummenacker 13 May '01

13 May '01

> > And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that he's > sent to >Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. > > A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation aren't > exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice system. > In California you could get a life sentence for theft if it's the third time you are caught and the dollar value is high enough. Vila was in and out of the system several times before he was made a lifer, or so I interpreted his comments on his past. The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. > >

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iains episode reviews: TWB
by Iain Walker 13 May '01

13 May '01

Rather than a "what happened next" approach (that has been done very well by others), these are just my random thoughts that came up during each episode. My bias in these comments is that I like the ambiguity of the series - i.e. not everyone in the federation is EVIL and not every rebel is PERFECT. The things that grate are those that are totally out of character or just don't make any sense or require an explanation I feel was probably in a cut out scene. Feel free to correct my observations/interpretations/add sarcastic comments :-). And before anyone asks - I *did* watch the episode!!! 8-P The Way Back A tremendous first episode that sets the scene for the whole series. We get insight to how the federation works, Blakes background, indications that you can't trust anyone, noone is totally good or bad. Drug me. We learn that the way the federation ensures total control is that the food and water are treated with suppressants. This only works if they have developed drugs that allow people to remain productive whilst stopping them from questioning authority. The idea that the federation is comfortable with designer drugs like this reoccurs in many episodes - even post federation with commissioner Sleer. However, the federation is aware that the drugging is not perfect because they also have many surveillance cameras (in public places only?). And they have terrible elevator music in the hallways - this music alone is probably enough to drive some people insane and break the drug induced tranquility. Another indication of imperfect drugging is the public address announcement: "President to answer questions on population control". So clearly there are people questioning authority and public announcements about it - so even the fact that people question authority is not hidden. This implies that the administration needs some sort of popular support. Is it possible that there are elections to some positions within the administration? So Blake may be fighting a democracy (albeit a pretty dodgy one). Blake asks Ravella why the administration would suppress us [with drugs]? Is he blind. everyone we see looks drugged. Is part of the drugging (even after 36 hours without drugs) stopping him from seeing this? I live in a dome. People live in domes, but it is possible to live outside - they are not surrounded by wasteland, the air is safe to breathe and the water is safe to drink (as Blake and Ravella do later in this episode). It is illegal to leave the domes - presumably because then people would not be drugged. The doors to outside are also locked (so the drugging isn't perfect) and require special equipment to open them. I wonder what drove everyone into the domes to begin with - I am sure the writers want us to believe some global nuclear or biological war. Are there domes in which the food is grown - or does food come from outside? I don't think so - it would be too difficult to harvest and transport. Where does the water come from? They must do lots of recycling in the domes. The domes are many levels above (see the outside shots) and below the ground (they come up the ladders to exit). Get a job. Blake (and presumably others?) is being "looked after": constant observation and following and faked tapes from his relatives (needing actors that look just like his family). This must be a huge industry in the federation employing lots of people. You can't trust anyone anymore. Why is Tarrant following them? And why is he following them if there are surveillance cameras everywhere? This is another indication that the total control is not perfect - there must be parts of the domes not covered by the cameras so they need to be followed in person). When Blake meets Foster I like that in the background Dev Tarrant says hello to everyone - so we know he really is a member of the resistance - after all our worrying with him following Blake. And then he actually says ".I thought for a moment we had been infiltrated." Hahahaha! Dev also says "we met before" implying the "old" Blake. Does this mean he Foster were members of Blakes first resistance group and they escaped the massacre? It has been four years since all Blakes followers were "captured" according to Foster. But they were "..transported to outer worlds and executed on arrival.". Why transport them at all - why not just kill them? After all, a pro keeps it simple ;-). I suppose it might be easier to hide the crime on a remote planet with less people to bribe (or keep quiet). These people are as ruthless as the federation - they have prepared documents to implicate Blake in their activities. Why would this worry Blake? - the federation watch him all the time and know that he has not been in contact with the resistance. Conspiracy theories galore. Are Tarrant and Foster both double agents? Tarrant asks Foster "what do you think?", to which Foster replies "there's not much left of the man I knew". Foster sounds sincere so I don't think he is a double agent, but this might be evidence that Foster is being "run" by Tarrant because Tarrant doesn't care what Foster thinks really because he has arranged a massacre! I am even more confused by their wanting to trap Blake if he is a reformed character. When the troopers come in, a trooper looks at Blake in his hiding place and does nothing: have they all been briefed to let Blake live (but then the "mastermind" would have to do something to all the troopers so they don't blab about this. This kind of thing is always a problem with too complex conspiracy theories - you have to keep too many people silent!). Why are all the bodies left lying around? To provoke Blake? After all, they are waiting for him when he returns to the dome: the expect him to survive!, and get captured! And return to the dome!! He could just have run off into the countryside. Was he saved because he would have become a martyr? Then they try to frame Blake with the child molesting charges. This is baffling if they have caught him with the resistance. Is it the "avoiding matyrdom" problem - i.e. child molesting will put everyone off. But then why set him up with the resistance? What's going on??? Also, when the lawyer and his S.O. are killed - their bodies are left lying around outside the dome. Won't these bodies be found by the outsiders and incite them further? Interior decorating taste aside, Glynd is concerned that justice has to be seen to be done. When Blake meets Varon, Varon says "of course not" when Blake says the charges aren't true. How does he know, or was he just being cynical? At the trial, why did Tarrant come to gloat. Very unprofessional! The legal records technician is a charicature beaureaucrat - listening to music instead of working. Like all small minded people with a little power he is actually happy that they do not have the right security clearance. But he is easily bribed. Varon is very naïve - if someone is easy to bribe you have just established that they can't be trusted - it then becomes obvious that he will stab you in the back and turn you in to the authorities (or - as part of the conspiracy he was told to take a bribe.). Tel Varon knows about mental implants, but his S.O. doesn't. It's the 70's dammit. Flares + bubble perms - 'nuff said. Why do Glynds doors a the justice department have that annoying woosh (I know - its overdubbed to hide the clunking of plywood hitting plywood)? Its great that Glynds place has shag pile carpet - a sure sign of '70's decadence. I bet the B7 producers had shag pile in their homes! But we do get to meet the worlds most machiavellian grandmother!! New neighbourhood, new friends. Vila is the first one he meets. Vila knows Blake the name, but not Blake the face. This implies that people (even potential followers) don't know what Blake looks like, so why don't the federation simply eliminate him? They can have a "Fake Blake" and noone will know. (However, Jenna looks like she recognises Blake?) The federation has failed to "adjust" Vilas brain too - a kindred spirit for Blake. Vila knows Jenna and Jenna knows Vila. Have they worked together before? The way they talk it does not sound like they have just met. At first Jenna is very aggressive, she says to Blake: "Better get used to the idea that noone out there gives a damn about you.". Then she goes soft, reassuring Blake with "don't worry, they'll get it" when discussing the holding order. She also reassures him again on the ship. (She MUST fancy him - it is the ONLY explanation.) But then we see that the lawyer is dead and Blake has no hope - great ending. In any other program our hero would never be condemned in this way. It is clear that from now on the good guys will regularly lose! And get killed off too! Together with their friends and family. Next week: Space Fall - Iain Walker

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Eclectic 21
by Judith Proctor 13 May '01

13 May '01

I gather this came out as an empty message the first time. You probably know this already, but here it is again for good luck. Judith Eclectic 21 have announced a couple of new guests, these are Sylvia Anderson, co-creator of Stingray, Thunderbirds, UFO and Space 1999 to name but four and Andrew Sewell the producer of the forthcoming Blakes 7 movie. Their web site is www.eclectic21.co.uk They've got a good run of B7 (Gareth Thomas, Jacqueline Pearce and Frank Maher - stunt man and very interesting to hear) and UFO guests (Ed Bishop - Straker, Michael Billington - Foster) The con also has a strong interest in DC and Marvel comics and there looks to be an interesting alternative programme on a variety of topics - vampires, tarot, aromatherapy, the future of conventions in the Internet age, etc. (and they've talked me into running a filk session) For those missed Gareth's packed-out Shakespeare reading at Redemption, here's your chance to hear him at his best, reading from the words of the Bard. Judith (still off-list, but slowly gaining ground on the e-mail backlog) - -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '03 21-23 Feb 2003 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

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Blakes7 May 2001