Blakes7 April 2001

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70 participants
295 discussions

a student in dire need of help!!!!! (fwd)
by Tavia 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Judith wrote: >I know people have varying feelings about being the >subject of research, but I've not run across a student >analysing conventions as a culture before, so if anyone >wants to lend her a hand, please drop her a line. I hope you'll encourage Hannah to share a summary of her results with the Lyst. Who knows, she might even join us... Tavia

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Re: [B7L] leaving the lyst (Sorry to see you go Shane)
by Jenny Kaye 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Cheryl wrote: >I prefer this, I know this list is for varied >discussion surrounding Blake 7 and that these >discussions can go elsewhere(that's fine) but what >Shane said seems to be so true - here, there is more >interest on the sexual side and not enough of what is >actually Blake's 7. Fun is great - but sex isn't the >only fun to be had. Maybe I'm sticking my neck out here but I agree with Cheryl. I thought Freedom City was supposed to be the list for discussing sex, and this was for general discussion bearing in mind that anyone of any age or religious persuasion might be reading. So it's nice to see most people talking about the programme instead :). And Rita wrote: I did not always like the tone >of some of Shane's posts and I felt that his continually getting at Annie/Leah >or any other individuals on the list was both pointless and unhelpful in >building up a case to support his viewpoint on slash. As for Shane, I don't think people should be talked about behind their backs, but I will say that he wasn't the only one flaming that I could see (no pun intended). Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Fanfics and limericks
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: jacquispeel(a)netscape.net >Is the argument Travis uses at his trial it a 'far more sophisticated' version of Par's 'only obeying orders' or is it something else? It's something else. Travis was not obeying orders, he was giving them-- there's a difference. I recommend Jim Smith's outstanding article in Zenith (available on Judith Proctor's website and at fine stores everywhere), which addresses the question in detail. Fiona (who is by coincidence currently reading the summations of the Nuremberg Trials...) The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Live from the observer's gallery at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: Blake Changes His Mind (was Re: [B7L] Re: Interpretation )
by Marian de Haan 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Harriet Monkhouse wrote about Blake's change in character: >At the start of the episode, Blake's face is smooth, bland and youthful. He doesn't actually look like the Blake I know from the rest of the series until we see him in his cell, and then talking to Havant. How much of his memory has returned I don't know, but he's beginning to regain his dissident mindset. He looks older, stressed, but at the same time more vital.< Having become used to the Blake of later episodes, it's fun to go back and watch him being such a model citizen. Marian

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Re: [B7L] More thoughts on Mellanby
by Marian de Haan 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Fiona replied to my: >>Considering that Orac is his only means of getting back to Liberator, Avon's priorities here don't strike me as out of character. He must be kicking himself for having let Orac out of his sight. :-)<< > >It's still a bit self-centred of him,< Well, to me Avon seems a very self-centred kind of person. :-) >and if he did like the fellow, it's a bit strange< Actually, I don't see much evidence for Avon liking Mellanby. The fact that Mellanby's a rebel - and a failed one at that - would speak against him, IMO. Avon's polite to him, but that is good politics in the circumstances. But even if he did like Mellanby, his reaction still wouldn't strike me as out of character. Avon's a practical man. Getting back to Liberator is his top one priority. He needs Orac for that, so the fact that Servalan has taken it is more important to him than the death of a man he has only known for a few hours. >>It's him leaving Orac for Servalan to grab in the first place that I find hard to credit.<< > >To be fair, she wouldn't have had a go at all if Mellanby (or Dayna?) hadn't left the gun lying around in the first place.< Still, one would expect someone with Avon's survival instinct to want to keep his only means for returning to Liberator with him at all times, especially when his enemy is around. All the more since Servalan has told him that she's after Orac. (This is what I meant by sloppy writing :-) ) >>I didn't interpret that as sarcasm but as a clumsy consolation attempt. :-)<< > >Perhaps not sarcastic, but still, it's an odd thing to say when someone you like dies. It's also a line that needs unpacking. If Mellanby had been fretting in exile, longing to get off Sarran, the line would have made a lot of sense: in death, Mellanby finally escapes his exile--and in that sense, his words might be a comfort to Dayna (although a consolation attempt is rather out of character for Avon--< Not if he sees it as the quickest way to get Dayna to help him find Servalan. > and Avon's never clumsy, he's always very precise).< Maybe clumsy is the wrong word, I meant that he seems not very good in the art of consoling. In Headhunter he leaves it to Soolin to tell Vena about Muller's death. The only thing he can think of to say to the grieving widow is: "Don't try to be stupid!" :-) Marian

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a student in dire need of help!!!!! (fwd)
by Judith Proctor 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

I know people have varying feelings about being the subject of research, but I've not run across a student analysing conventions as a culture before, so if anyone wants to lend her a hand, please drop her a line. It sounds rather interesting to me - conventions are a break from the mundane world, I love that atmosphere in which you can be who you want to be and dress as you like with nobody assuming anything other than that you love to dress up. Judith (still off list with the usual aches and pains - went to see an assessor for the Open University today who had several intelligent ideas for ideas to help with the typing pain. They do equipment grant for students with disabilities and she sounded quite optimistic. Fingers crossed.) > > dear Judith > > hi my names hannah and I'm at Staffordshire University, at > the moment I'm doing a module where I have to research a > chosen culture. I have chosen to look at the types of > people who attend sci-fi conventions and why they go. I > have been to two myself, Who's 7 in 96 and deliverance in > 98. > > I am finding it extremely hard to find people who have been > to conventions and also to find information on the web. > > Please could you put a note on the site asking anyone who > wants to, to get in contact with me by e-mail and just > write a short paragraph letting me know a few reasons why > they go, how often they go and what kind of person they are > i.e. age, proffesion so that I can get an idea of the type > of person they are. > > I would prefer any mail to be sent to : madge968(a)hotmail.com > > Thanks very much and your views or advice would be very > much appreciated, > > Hannah Keely.

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Blake Changes His Mind (was Re: [B7L] Re: Interpretation )
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> >The trouble is that Blake seems to undergo a complete >character change between TWB and Space Fall-- True. >which I suppose might happen given the level of >trauma, but still should have gotten at least a minute >of screen time. Blake in TWB is a pawn completely >at the mercy of events--he doesn't go outside with the >deliberate intention of returning to subversive activity, >only to hear about his brother and sister (since Ravella >and Richie are blackmailing him, they may also have >fabricated the story that his family has been killed). >He spends the massacre hiding, which is a very natural >and believable human reaction but not very Blake-like; >his conduct in the rest of the series is nothing if not >pro-active. And he tells Ravella that he needs time to >think about what she's just said--something he very >conspicuously doesn't give Avon in Space Fall. I don't find the change of character at all surprising, myself. Between the two stories, Blake has been galvanised into action. At the beginning of TWB, he is a good citizen, and believes he always has been so; as you say he is completely at the mercy of the events which overtake him. Between the massacre and "Space Fall," however, his world is completely shattered. Not only has he just witnessed the massacre you mention and learned the truth about his family, past and mental conditioning at the Federation's hands, but he has been framed for child molestation, told that he is insane, given a show trial, had his lawyer killed before he could get an appeal, and packed off to Cygnus Alpha on a ship full of sadistic guards. Enough to rouse anyone to action, I think; militant fanatics are often made of much less. It's worth noting that in "Space Fall," it is the knowledge that his family are dead that gives Blake the strength to resist Zen's trap. If there had even lingered the slightest bit of doubt about the reasons for doing what he was doing, I think he'd have been every bit as trapped as Jenna and Avon. And the thing that kept Blake going was the things he had experienced on Earth, in the brief time between the massacre and his being put on the London. So yes, I agree that there is a change in character, but one that under the circumstances seems to ring true. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Totally unchanged at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [B7L] Terry Nation as Writer (was Re: Perceptions)
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: "Una McCormack" <una(a)qresearch.org.uk> >'Cops in Space' is a fairly simple premise, I think <g> (and shorter than 'Robin >Hood in Space'!). Perhaps, thinking it over, it's not so much a question of a simple premise as a straightforward, or even archetypical, one. For instance, B7 is Robin Hood in Space, Star Trek is Wagon Train in Space, Lost in Space is The Swiss Family Robinson in Space-- but Star Cops is less easy to define. It's Cops in Space, but it's not Magnum PI in Space, or Inspector Morse in Space, or The Bill in Space. I think maybe some of Star Cops' viewer-alienating factor may be people who tune in expecting "Cops in Space" to be "The Bill in Space" and getting thrown. >The reason 'Star Cops' failed was that it was bunged out in a >death slot on BBC2, and that by 1987 we weren't watching TV drama series in the >same way anymore. 'Star Cops' would have sat quite happily at 8:10pm on BBC1 on >a Tuesday night in 1978. It has all the ingredients of those dramas: simple >premise, and a small set of characters whom you stick in various situations week >by week. Perhaps true, but there's a bit more to it I think in that it's still hard to get people to watch it today. When I lived in Canada, I remember the local public station (which usually gave anything British and 1970s pride of place on the viewing schedule) put it out at 11 PM and seemed rather embarrassed about showing it at all--I'm not sure they understood it. Similarly, I know a lot of fans who say that they find it hard to get into, and/or the characters hard to identify with, or, in one case, "it just leaves me cold," even after I've sat them down and forced them to watch it. >I agree that Boucher is at his best when he's writing within an established >format, and that Nation was above all a consummate professional who knew how to >get programmes commissioned. Definitely. But I also think they're both more than that... Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane The Incomparable Atuk in Space at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Terry Nation as Writer (was Re: Perceptions)
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: Tavia <tavia(a)btinternet.com> >Fiona, then Neil: > > Perhaps I've just been disillusioned by recent events on the lyst, but > > Neil-- *how* does fandom in and of itself strip reality down to its bare > > essentials and ask fundamental questions? > >Cock-up on my part. I actually meant fan*fic*. I got confused between > >the creative output and its source. Fanfic compares quite well to punk > >lyrics -the naivety and/or simplicity (as you prefer) of the texts is not > >necessarily echoed in the writers. And not all of the texts are either >naive > >or simple. > >Well, I for one am still confused. In my experience of fanfic -- limited I >know -- I'd say that there was a strong positive correlation between >complexity of the text and seriousness of the questions addressed. Which brings me, actually, to something that's been on my mind during the Aftermath thread, but it kind of began in the Deliverance thread, to be honest, so I thought I'd try and verbalise it here. In fact, I think I'll go the whole pretentious hog... THE STATE OF THE NATION: "SLOPPY" WRITING AND AFTERMATH (by Fiona Moore, class 5b) In the recent discussion of the episode Aftermath on Lysator, some interesting suggestions have come to light vis-a-vis the character of Hal Mellanby. While these items are of interest in and of themselves in terms of the interpretation of the episode, they also point to differences in the writing styles and orientations to the viewer of the principal writers on B7. Viewing Aftermath again, it comes across as more complex than initial viewing might suggest. It is possible to see Hal Mellanby--as I did when I first watched Aftermath--as just someone like Blake but more fallible-- he had an ideal and took a stupid chance, he was tortured and (as one does under torture) confessed, and managed to get lucky and escape. However, watching it back, one can see under this message the pattern of a deeper guilt, pointing to something darker-- the allusions to Prospero, the ambiguity about Lauren's presence, Mellanby's almost ingratiating eagerness to tell Avon his story, and yet the indication later on that this isn't the version he has told his daughter, and Mellanby's hypocritical scruples with regard to manufacturing weapons and yet refusing to use them. The final scene with Servalan is particularly interesting, in that Servalan never actually accuses Mellanby of anything beyond leading a revolt; she says a series of ambiguous phrases which evidently hit a nerve, and cause Mellanby to reveal more than he should. The suggestion at the end of the story is that Mellanby was an arms dealer who led an uprising of which he and his daughter were the only survivors-- but the fact that he escaped, the mysterious "chance to save Dayna" which he took (and, interestingly, which he never explains, suggesting that there was something dodgy about it), the fact that before he left Earth he was somehow fitted with vision-augmenting technology (without which he could not have flown the spaceship), the fact that he watched his friends and family die (and there is additionally the suggestion that this was a deliberate massacre; as one is unlikely to bring children along to a riot, it seems likely that the families of the conspirators were rounded up after their capture), all expose Mellanby as a self-serving hypocrite who cut a deal with the Federation to save his own life. But the question is, is this interpretation just down to poor writing on Terry Nation's part-- is the darkness not there, but he has written the story so sloppily that it can be read in? I would say not, and here's why: because there's a *pattern* to the omissions with regard to Mellanby. We get three different stories about him-- his own, the story he told Dayna, the story Servalan weasels out of him at the end. While changes between episodes or series are more understandable, it would take a mentally subnormal writer to forget a character's backstory from one scene to the next. Lauren's presence, as has been noted, is never fully explained-- but why put the character in at all, then? Working on a limited budget, you don't want to hire more actors than you need. Perhaps Lauren's very function is to be ambiguous, and leave some doubt about Mellanby's story. Poor writing is not the presence of ambiguities and unexplained gaps per se (some of the best films are full of unexplained moments), but the randomness of these, the presence of one or two glaring absences in a script otherwise carefully-written. So Terry Nation, rather than writing sloppily, seems to be doing something rather clever-- he's putting forward a story that can be seen as a simple story on the first viewing, and on the second viewing as a simple story with some holes in it, but if you care enough to view it a few more times, a more complicated strand emerges which makes sense of the holes-- and makes the story less simple. Furthermore, it is interesting that it is only the viewer who hears all three of the versions of Mellanby's story-- even Servalan never learns the whole truth, but the viewer, as in Kurosawa's *Rashomon,* is given all the clues they need to piece together what happened on Earth. Aftermath is not the only Nation story of this type, either. As was discussed elsewhere, Deliverance is another story which looks simple with a bit of sloppy writing--H. Rider Haggard in space, complete with a scantily-clad priestess--but then when it is looked at more closely, the story transforms into a complex tale of traps which speculates on the nature of Messiahdom and the impact of the fulfilment of prophecies on millenarian societies. Now here's where I'd like to bring Chris Boucher into this. Chris also writes very complicated stories, but the complexity is always accessable to the viewer. You have to work a bit to understand some of the things going on in, say, Weapon-- but you know there's something going on, and you feel like watching it again until you understand. Terry Nation, by contrast, is a showman-- he gives the public what it wants, and it wants bug-eyed monsters, Robin Hood, and H. Rider Haggard. But Nation is also intelligent, and so, while he is cynically giving the public what it wants, he is also writing something else below the surface, sufficiently deep down that most of his audience will miss it completely (it's interesting that the only time when Nation's subtext does become accessable is in "Genesis of the Daleks," which was heavily edited by Robert Holmes, Chris Boucher's mentor). It's also interesting that Chris Boucher seems to be at his best when writing in an established formula. Writing for Doctor Who and B7, the premises of the medium are already simple, and so he can take these and write a story which is rather on the complex end for each of these series. Freed from these constraints, he writes a show--Star Cops--which is liked by intelligent cognoscienti, but alienates the ordinary viewer (don't blame the naff effects, either. B7 had worse, and got four series). Nation, by contrast, specialises in taking simple premises that sell--Robin Hood in space, post-apocalyptic survivalism, Nazi stories-- and writing them into something simple that sells, but which has a much deeper message underneath, if only the viewer can be bothered to analyse it. So in the end, it perhaps isn't fair to say that Terry Nation is a less complex, or more sloppy, writer than Chris Boucher or Robert Holmes. All are equally complex-- the difference, however, is that the latter two overestimate the ability of their audience to cope with a complex message, and the former underestimates it. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Thesis, what thesis? at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [B7L] surveillance cameras
by J MacQueen 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: Tavia <tavia(a)btinternet.com> >I don't imagine an id card would have many advantages for the users, No, I don't either. That's why I put it the way I did. Should've added that the bureaucrats would want it electronically readable, which we don't need, when all that's really required is some sort of card which has a name, a photograph, and a signature on it. That'd say "This is me, now give me those blinking cards that allow me access to my money!", which is the main reason I need something of the sort. Something simple, so that anyone who wanted or needed to establish another identity could do so. Not that I see that happening - you see the fuss that would be made by the Laura Norder mob, oh dear me, we'd be heading for anarchy if it was that easy to get a new name! No, it's too simple, and makes other things more complex. We need it and we don't need it. I don't know what the solution is, but it certainly isn't a tattooed shuffler in a British shopping complex, right, Una? >particularly not hitched to a system where one had to carry such, and >presumably therefore had to go by a single name? I used to rather enjoy >having three or four different identities... (confuse the bastards...) And serve them right too! More often than not they deserve to be confused, seeing as they think it best to confuse others. <shakes head> Now what am I going to do with all these worms from that can? Regards Joanne Note: if you skip really fast in one spot, with a haughty expression on your face - it's flamenco! --Joy Sikorski, How to draw a clam. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Blakes7 April 2001