Blakes7 March 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

96 participants
1067 discussions

Re: [B7L] I See Dead People
by Harriet Monkhouse 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

Ellynne made some extremely interesting observations about the disposal of the dead: >These 'burials' probably occurred in deep space >where the odds of the body being encountered >by accident were low and not where they would >be in orbit around a planet. What *does* happen to bodies in deep space (when they're not Vargas)? Jarriet

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Re: [B7L] A Sterile Federation
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/13/01 11:50:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, stephend999(a)yahoo.co.uk writes: << I find it difficult to imagine a motive for this. Furthermore discussions about family members seem to assume normalish sort of family relations - Blake refers to siblings, Avon has a brother, Jenna's mother is seen, Hal Mellanby does not feel the need to explain away the existence of a daughter, nor does the existence of Ushton's daughter excite any undue comment. This is just off the top of my head.<< The existence of 'siblings' could merely mean that the two of you came out of the same test tube batch. As for Jenna, Hal Mellanby and Ushton, it's probably significant that all three (plus Tyce) came from off-world. Perhaps the whole thing is confined to Earth, and isn't practiced on colony worlds. << A lot of the environments that we saw were not really the sort of place you'd expect to see children - The London, the planet of the lost, the bases on Saurian Major and Centero, Space Command HQ, Star One, The Thaarn's artificial black hole, Malodaar... again, those are just the ones off the top of my head.<< True. But there were other places where children *would* have been appropriate, and we saw none. >>Given that the Federation had renounced cloning (Weapon) and that Servalan wanted to use the techniques the Auronar possessed in CoA as the Federation didn't have them it seems that natural birth would have still been the norm in the Federation.<< Actually, your example might be proof otherwise; that Servalan knew that the best way to bypass a Federation system that forbade its citizens individual, natural birth was to cheat and have her eggs extracted and fertilized off-world, where the rules were different. >> Vila's comments about choosing the wrong parents, seem to indicate that the class system was largely hereditary. I imagine creches would have been available for Alpha women who also had careers - possibly there was an element of class resentment in Bayban's sneer at Blake.<< Likewise, Vila's comment could also be a generalized one about the source stock that the Federation used for himself, as well as other Deltas. >>FWIW I don't think there were any real pressures for the Federation to control fertility as the surplus population could always be shipped off to found another colony.<< If nothing else, we learned that the Federation was into control. They didn't even want their citizens leaving the domes, much easily emigrating. I imagine they had a good deal of control over that process, too. Pirates and aliens exempted, of course. And oh yes, rebels who steal bloody big ships and run away. >>Possibly leaving earth could be one of the few ways for social advancement - which in turn may have been why Governor Le Grand wanted the leader of her new alliance to come from Earth.<< And yet another clue that leaving Earth wasn't an easy matter for a Dome-raised citizen of the Federation. Leah

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Re: [B7L] Re: copyright
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/13/01 3:01:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, steve.rogerson(a)mcr1.poptel.org.uk writes: << currently reading Chris Boucher's Dr Who novel Corpse Marker in which the character Carnell from B7 appears. Now I understood that the reason Chris could do this was that he owned the copyright on the character Carnell. >> Not necessarily. That sort of homage gets past copyright law without repercussions, all the time. An excellent example is the Star Trek novel that mentioned quite a few TV Western characters from various series by name. Leah

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Re: [B7L] the future of programming
by Tavia 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

Steve wrote: >I don't think people *do* understand them [[complex systems]] in >their totality; that's why I mentioned subsystems. I beg to differ. In my line, understanding complex systems in their totality is all part of a day's work, though I admit it's a reasonably rare skill. Someone I used to work for said that when she needed to write something really challenging (and we're talking about papers for academic journals here), she'd go home and have a couple of G&Ts and then write the first thing that came into her head. I think that was her way of freeing her brain to understand things at a higher level than the bog-standard logical one. >And a town planner, who reroutes roads around buildings to give better >traffic flow, can screw things up in exactly the same way as a programmer, >when, say, that tiny through-road gets flooded. And a really good town-planner would close his/her eyes, then say 'no that doesn't work, there's a bottleneck there'.

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Lyst Culture Guide (take 2)
by Kathryn Andersen 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

Thanks folks for the comments, here's a newer version. More comments appreciated -- any more suggestions for the "sickly equine" category? I just mean things that are likely to cause oldies to groan and say "oh no not that again", not things that are particular people's hobby-horses. Have I left out any people-groups either? Guide to Lyst Culture ********************** (written for the B7 mailing list at <http://lists.lysator.liu.se/mailman/listinfo/blakes7>) composed by Kathryn Andersen version 0.2 Considering the number of newbies who have admitted to being nearly frightened away by the manner of folks on this list, and wondering how much larger the number who *were* frightened away, I figured it was a good idea to write a Gentle Introduction which will lift confusion and humanise these apparently terrifying denizens of these electronic halls. Me saw need, me wrote. If me make mistakes, please tell, so corrections entered. This is by no means meant to replace the actual Lyst FAQ (at <http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/b7list/FAQ.html>) but serve as an adjunct to it. Lyst Culture In A Bottle ************************* What's this "Lyst" business? ============================= The mailing list <blakes7(a)lists.lysator.liu.se> was, so far as I know, the first Blake's 7 (electronic) mailing list to be created (and it also predates the newsgroup). Note the "lysator" in the address. Since there are other lists (most notably, the Other List), presumably to save having to say "the lysator List", a shorthand for that is simply "the Lyst". Our Esteemed Listowner, Calle, is not a woman. This doesn't stop people calling him "Cally", indeed, it would be almost irresistible not to, considering the subject of this List. Nobody outside his native country can actually pronounce his name correctly, but it may help those who want to try, to keep in mind that "Calle" comes from the same root as "Carl". Not only that, it's a common short form of Carl, in the same way that Dick is for Richard. Contrary to rumour, "lysator" does not mean "liberator" in Calle's native tongue. It apparently doesn't mean anything in particular. Posting Style ============== Unlike many other lists, we don't tend to be chatty, and off-topic posts are (after a while) encouraged to go to the Spin-off list, so that we can get down to the serious business of discussing the political systems in B7 or the nature of terrorism or how teleportation works; or the lighthearted business of Avon's red leather trousers or what kind of ice cream the particular characters would prefer, or how to recast the series. It isn't a required custom on this list to introduce yourself, though a few people like to. People also don't tend to welcome newbies -- we just get on with the discussion and expect folks to join in (or not). Please don't consider this unfriendly; it's simply... focused. If someone doesn't respond to your posting it could simply be because they agreed with it -- and didn't want to write a "me too" post. If the Lyst seems particularly busy and snarky, it's probably February. Odd Acronyms and Other Collections ================================== If you are confused by people referring to "the wrath of FINALACT" or suchlike, be confused no longer. As with many online fandoms, groups of likeminded fans often declare allegiance to their particular favourite characters, and form groups. Generally in order to be part of such a group... one simply declares oneself to be part of it. One doesn't have to be part of any group at all, and these groups are not meant to be taken deadly seriously either. Though some are more tongue-in-cheek than others. Often they are formed of those who consider their view to be a minority one. The TarrantNostra ------------------ Yes, this one doesn't have odd acronyms but with such a cool name, who needs them? The first known reference to the TarrantNostra is apparently in 1995. This group, is, obviously, those who favour Tarrant. Carol McCoy is "The Godmother" of the the TarrantNostra; other members may not be so clearly identified. F.I.N.A.L.A.C.T. ---------------- This stands for "Foundation Invalidating Numerous Accusations Levelled At Croucher's Travis". These are the fans who prefer Brian Croucher's Travis, aka Travis II. They have a tendency to threaten detractors with The Comfy Chair, Karaoke music and Teletubby torture. Penny Dreadful is the Chief Inquisitor. See also <http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/cgi-bin/getbyid.pl?id=26736> G.I.T.H.O.G. ------------ This stands for "Greif Is Travis, House Of Greif". Byline -- 'In Time, We All Come to Greif'. These are the fans who prefer Stephen Grief's Travis, aka Travis I. They appear to be less active than FINALACT, probably because they don't perceive themselves to be in the minority. See also <http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/cgi-bin/getbyid.pl?id=33344> A.S.K.S. -------- Avon's Sympathetic Kindred Spirits go against the flow of Avon fans because they don't give a fig whether he looks sexy in black leather, they just identify with him. Kathryn Andersen made up this acronym, so she is presumably the founding member. Gareth's Gorillas ----------------- Fans who are into Gareth Thomas and his work, as distinct from just being interested in Blake (though they are interested in Blake too). Chief Gorilla is Judith Proctor. One may see them at cons wearing "Gareth's Gorilla" badges. The Gan Defence League ---------------------- Those who appreciate the unsung and oft under-appreciated Olag Gan. Judith Proctor goes around distributing oak leaves to those who stand up for Gan and say nice things about him. S.C.A.M. -------- Society for Crushing Animals Maligners, given a name by Una McCormack, the (almost) sole person who not only liked the episode "Animals", but strives to defend it. Followers of the Goddess ------------------------ The concept of the Golden Goddess Soolin, her Acolyte Dayna, and the Chief Hairdresser Vila was the invention of Lindley, now no longer with us. But worth a mention anyway. Sickly Equines =============== Certain topics have a habit of coming up over and over again. I'm reluctant to call them dead horses, because it can be the case that a newbie can actually offer new insight that nobody's thought of before, and pass the hand of healing over what was once assumed to be a corpse. - Hey, Maybe Avon Shot Blake's Clone! - Was Blake a Freedom Fighter Or A Terrorist? Should Blake Have Destroyed Star One? - Avon Was Mad (No He Wasn't) Hot Topics ========== One topic which is pretty much guaranteed to start the fires burning no matter how nicely and calmly people may start the discussion, is slash. If you don't know what slash is, don't worry, since you probably don't want to argue about it either. An oldish summary of the pro-slash position from Susan Beth can be found at <ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/blake7/misc/slash.defense> A summary of the anti-slash position is at <http://www.katspace.com/b7/slashsum.html> Any topic can raise the temperature if it is pursued obnoxiously enough. There has been steam coming out of ears over - whether Deliverance is Sexist - posting style - con reports - religion just to name a few. But don't let that scare you off, we're generally quite calm and rational... Signs that a thread has gone on too long at too high a temperature are - posters start repeating themselves (worst case, reposting earlier posts of their own) - postings degenerate into a "he said, she said" dissection of why what so-and-so said was insulting. INTJ? MBTI? Huh? ================== Once upon a time, someone first brought up the idea of figuring out the Meyers-Brigs (personality) Type Indicator for each of the characters. It was mentioned briefly once before, but the topic truly exploded in February 1998 when Adam Fuller posted this -- <http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/cgi-bin/getbyid.pl?id=21161> There's some archival information on how this thread started on Sue Clerc's pages -- <http://members.nbci.com/sjcinct/mbb7.html> Much discussion ensued, and many people went off to <http://www.keirsey.com> to take the personality tests there to figure out their own type. Of those who took the tests and actually reported back, the majority appeared to be either INTJ or INTP types (and, oddly enough, the consensus was that Avon was either an INTJ or an INTP). This probably explains why the posting style of the list appears so unfriendly -- half of us are closet Avons. Some people are sick of this topic. Others remain fascinated by it. Penguins? What's that got to do with B7? ========================================= The connection between penguins and B7 can only be explained by the one who discovered the sinister conspiracy in the first place. For some reason, Calle seems to think it was Una McCormack, but the rest of the world blames it on Neil Faulkner. <http://homepages.tesco.net/~N.Faulkner/blakes7/darkheart/darkheart.htm> Except for Neil, who blames it on Alison Page. Acknowledgements ================ Thanks (in no particular order) to Penny Dreadful, Calle Dybedahl, Neil Faulkner, Una McCormack, Tavia, Mistral, Steve Rogerson for additions, comments and corrections. Where To Find It ================ This FAQ-ish thing can be found on the web at <http://www.katspace.com/b7/lyst.html> and posted on the Lyst at regular intervals (when I set it up). -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat(a)foobox.net> / \ | <http://www.katspace.com> \_.--.*/ | v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

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Re: [B7L] Request For Comment - Lyst Culture Guide
by Tavia 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

Kathryn: >While some people find a custom of once-a-year introductions >(as Tavia suggested, as per Freedom City) to be friendly and fun, >for other people, it's simply an unwelcome pressure to tell a whole >lot of people about their life when they'd rather keep it private. >An invasion of privacy, not a fun thing at all. In her original post, Kathryn asked for feedback, which usually -- but not always -- means that the person wishes to hear differing views. The idea of annual introductions was only a *suggestion* (and one I seem to recall someone else making previously). Even if implemented, no-one would be under any onus to say anything more about themselves than they felt comfortable with. Given my particular biases, I asked for 'bios' for ttba and moreover I hassled people till I got something for everyone. The results vary in personal relevance from moderately accurate to utterly fictional (the only thing you can safely gather from the Tavian bio is my liking for Jane Au sten). Most people agreed that the final spread is rather amusing, including some of the people who initially were negative about the idea. >...you won't find there any of the usual vital statistics... >because telling people my age, marital status, job etc >doesn't actually tell them anything about *me*, about >how and what I think, about what makes me me. >It just gets in the way -- labels and boxes to put me in I agree with Kathryn that 'vital statistics' don't tend to be all that illuminating, and anyway one can spin the various details in so so many ways. Personally, I'm deeply uncomfortable about the plethora of photographs of myself that have recently sprouted on a number of sites -- different people have different comfort zones and different squick factors. Anyway, perhaps on reflection being accused of being friendly, or even warm and fuzzy, is probably not the worst thing anyone's ever said about me... Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Request For Comment - Lyst Culture Guide
by Jenny Kaye 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

Tavia wrote: > >People don't tend to introduce themselves or welcome > >newbies -- we just get on with the discussion. Please > >don't consider this unfriendly; it's simply... focused. > >...This habit (which I agree is currently in evidence) being one in point. >Rather than incorporating it into the Lyst 'rule set' perhaps we should at >least *consider* changing it? Perhaps we really *are* being unfriendly? The >once-a-year 'everyone posts an introduction' idea on FC seemed quite fun to >this (chatty) list-reader. I don't know... speaking as a newbie I don't think I'd like that! It's one thing to say "Hi I'm new" and another to have to say "Hi, I'm Jenny, I have an English degree from Sussex and my favourite character is Travis?" People here welcomed me when I said I was new and that was very nice I thought, but I don't expect whole outpourings of love, especially not on a Blakes 7 mailing list! Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] I See Dead People
by Ellynne G. 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:04:16 -0500 "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> writes: > OK, there's a necropolis in "Duel," but > what do they do with dead bodies on Terra-- > bury them? Cremate them? If there's a small > population, there would probably be room for > burials, but of course there would be no religious > objections to cremation. > Off the top of my head, the references to burial among Federtion types are - Tarrant in Dawn of the Gods, when he believes Vila is dead, says he will retrieve the body so they can give him a decent burial in space. Vila, in Sarcophagus, says 'Incidental' would look nice on his tombstone (yes, he's being ironic). Servalan's reference to cremating Blake. Tarrant's comment reflects strong feelings about giving proper rites, which would have to be social rather than religious. It may reflect military culture (a few billion bodies floating around Earth seems like it would be a travel hazard), and may even reflect the attitudes of one sub-branch rather than military as a whole. Since Vila also makes references to Hell in a culture where religion is (more or less) nonexistant, the reference to a tombstone may also be a remnant phrase, reflecting a custom no longer followed or one no longer followed in a way we would be familiar with. Whatever Servalan claimed to have done to Blake's body (and may have done to him or someone else), social propriety was probably not uppermost in her mind. Keeping the body could have had its drawbacks (focus of cultish devotion [whether or not that was common in Federation territory], issues of martyrdom, more clones, etc) but getting rid of it also posed problems ("Oh, yeah, you're just _saying_ he's dead"). She was also trying to say something really devastating to Avon and anonymous cremation may or may not have been meant to hit a nerve. So, skipping that ambiguous evidence. Although there was space on Earth, space in the domes themselves was limited. Also, the Federation would have had limited interest in memorializing the past outside of a sort of Cult of the Federation. Also, when given a choice between burial on an actual planet and 'burial at sea,' Tarrant chooses the latter. This suggests graves as a place of memorial was not part of his social baggage. For the military, who generally see more of their friends die over the course of their careers than the average Federation citizen sees, emphasizing that this sacrifice is respected and meaningful would be important to members of the group. These 'burials' probably occured in deep space where the odds of the body being encountered by accident were low and not where they would be in orbit around a planet. For the average citizen, I'm guessing a memorial service and cremation - and keeping the ashes was probably discouraged as macabre. In cases of a prominent citizen, some kind of memorial marker might be put up but _not_ over real grave or with the ashes. Given Vila's surprise at events on Chenga and the fact Servalan used local terms like 'slaughterhouse' rather than saying, "It's their version of an organ slaughterhouse," they either didn't use such things in the Federation or were extremely discreet (my guess is that the Clonemasters could supply vat grown organs [what happened after the war is open to debate, but the ruthless doctors and the needed systems wouldn't have been immediately in place (and nonperfect genetic matches are never as good)]). As for 'Soylent Green,' the little I know about cannibalism in its social context follows two main routes, ritual cannibalism with the attempt to 'absorb' or keep aspects of the dead and cannibalism as a form of terrorism (although this may also have ritual elements, as with the Aztecs) where it is used to intimidate enemies or subject peoples (educational TV is a scary world, isn't it?). The first probably wouldn't suit the Federation's needs, since they probably like to keep commemoration of individuals in the past (especially as separate entities from Federation glory) at a low level. The second has its points, but it doesn't seem quite their style of intimidation. So long as there weren't food shortages (and there didn't seem to be) I'm assuming they wouldn't do this. Had to think about this once when I was working on a story and I had to ask myself if Vila would get the concept of cemetaries on Auron and, if he didn't, where he was coming from and what they meant to him. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: Blues war
by Harriet Monkhouse 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

Una told Tavia: >> Hmm. As I can rarely remember whether I'm supposed >> to support light or dark blue I suspect the other mob >> might win on points... > >It's *light* for heaven's sake! Dark, Tavia, dark - look at the pretty dark blue... ignore the light blue scum over there... Jarriet

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Re: [B7L] A Sterile Federation
by Harriet Monkhouse 14 Mar '01

14 Mar '01

Leah wrote: >As for Jenna, Hal Mellanby and Ushton, it's >probably significant that all three (plus Tyce) >came from off-world. Did they? We know they all spent significant amounts of time off-world, but in Jenna's case that was work, and the two men were in exile, whether voluntary or enforced. Mellanby's revolt appeared to take place on Earth. Harriere

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Blakes7 March 2001