Blakes7 March 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

96 participants
1067 discussions

Re: [B7L] Homophobia
by Fiona Moore 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

>From: "Shane Little" <littles(a)angelfire.com> >Annie wrote: > >I never demanded that you (or Neil or anyone) "shut up." I simply pointed >out > >that your comments were taken as an insult against my personal lifestyle > >choices. I believe several others agreed that it was an insult. I don't >think > >you (or many other Christians on this list) would like it if I aired my > >personal views on Christianity > >Perhaps they might. Not everyone on the lyst thinks other people's >viewpoints are "sick," you know. I don't agree with Kathryn's beliefs, but >because she presented them politely and neatly, I read her post and mentally >agreed to disagree. If you were able to air your views on Christianity >politely and in a rational way, people might well listen. But calling other >people sick and slagging off their beliefs out of hand isn't going to win >you any politeness awards. I'm with Shane on this one. I have to say it's a bit narrow to not care about other people's reasons for doing or not doing something, however one personally feels. There's lots of things in B7 fandom I personally don't do and may even find objectionable on one ground or other, but I'm always interested in other people's reasons *for* doing them-- perhaps because it's so different to my own beliefs that I'd like to know more about them. I'm an agnostic who was raised by atheist parents, but I've attended several churches of various faiths and denominations, because I'm interested in worldviews different to my own. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [B7L] Re: Unlikely lust objects
by Ellynne G. 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 07:20:45 +1000 Kathryn Andersen <kat(a)foobox.net> writes: > On Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 08:59:54AM -0800, Mistral wrote: > > Neil Faulkner wrote: > > > > > But to reiterate the question I put at Redemption: Surely there > are worse > > > things than two characters having gay sex? > > > > Just a guess, but ISTM that if there are two actions that one sees > as > > wrong, then it is less disturbing to see one that is clearly > presented > > as wrong (massacre) than something that one believes is wrong > being > > presented as desirable (slash). > > > > IOW, the bad guys get to be bad; it's a convention of fiction. > > What she said. Who does it. Ditto. Who does it and whether the story presents it as ethical (in some cases, _how_ it's presented - stories that are clearly playing lip service to something being bad while going all out to be exploitive [but I've mentioned my problem with Victorian-Gothic before]). > > If characters I respect and like are made by the author to do > something > very wrong, and it is treated as something right, then I hate what > the > author has done to the characters. It's character assassination at > the > least. (*) Right, it would be like watching Avon kill Blake and then having all the characters pat him on the back for it. >I am really annoyed with the creators of the Buffyverse for making Willow a lesbian. And the _way_ they did it. One season, Willow was very conservative sexually - finding out her vampire double was bi disturbed her considerably. Besides that, there was also her religion (her personal discomfort with 'Merry Christmas' and her concern for how her dad would react if he found a cross in her room both brought it up). These should have been issues even if she had come to the same decision. But then, when the writers had the _Jewish_ girl arguing hereditary/racial guilt (and punishment) made sense in the Thanksgiving episode, I knew they just didn't care. OTOH, when Avon shoots Blake, I may not like it, but I _believe_ it. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Schizophrenia [was Re: Unlikely lust objects]
by Fiona Moore 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

>From: Harriet Monkhouse <hflysator(a)jarriere.demon.co.uk> >Fiona wrote: > >So the fact that they presented Gul Dukat > >(and other Cardassians) in this very schizophrenic way appeals to me-- in my > >experience, the same person *can* incorporate very evil and very good > >aspects in their personalities, and often divorce the two in very > >schizophrenic ways. > >Um, I think it's quite possible that Dukat was schizophrenic, going by >the scenes in Waltz (if I mean Waltz - I'm hopeless on non-B7 episode >titles) where he hears voices, argues with hallucinations etc. But >schizophrenia is not split personality (this was drummed into me as a >child by my mother, who was then a psychiatric social worker) and I >would prefer it if the two weren't confused. Touche. Well, whatever it is that causes people to divorce their actions in one context from those in another context, then (I don't think I do mean split personality, at that). ObB7: I'm sure people have to do this to live within the Federation too. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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PD (telemovie)
by M 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

HI I also got the B7 newsletter, it reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask. I heard about a channel 4 (Britsh tele) sci-fi series which includes PD, it is again mentioned in the newsletter. Thing is, has this been on, if not when will it be? Please, if anyone knows tell me so I dont miss it!!! Thanks, thanks and thanks M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] Re: Unlikely lust objects indeed
by Shane Little 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Murray wrote: >The problem is that I didn't see anything like that happening regarding >this aspect of Willow. For example, there wasn't any evidence that she had >fantasies involving or was attracted to members of her own gender, or that >she felt 'unlike' other girls. It was, to some extent 'dropped on' fans, >unlike other aspects of the characters. Indeed, the fact that it began so >soon after Oz's departure could lead people to conclude that the >relationship with Tara was to some extent a rebound one, like Buffy's with >Riley Finn. I think going out with Oz would be enough to turn anyone gay :). Shane "Servalan has a long memory." --Avon Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015

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Re: [B7L] reasons
by Shane Little 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Jenny wrote: >Shane wrote: > >> > Me and my militant army of slash-eating penguins, that's who. > >Can my Fox's Glacier Mint-sucking polar bears join your slash-eating >penguins? Sure, the more the merrier but what can they bring to the fight? Shane "Most men see only what they want to see." --Hal Mellanby Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015

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Re: [B7L] Homophobia
by Shane Little 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Annie wrote: ><< I don't read it. But are you going to demand that I never participate > in discussion, a discussion I was *asked* to participate in? Neil asked > me a question. I answered it. Are you going to demand that Neil shut > up too? >> > >I never demanded that you (or Neil or anyone) "shut up." I simply pointed out >that your comments were taken as an insult against my personal lifestyle >choices. I believe several others agreed that it was an insult. I don't think >you (or many other Christians on this list) would like it if I aired my >personal views on Christianity Perhaps they might. Not everyone on the lyst thinks other people's viewpoints are "sick," you know. I don't agree with Kathryn's beliefs, but because she presented them politely and neatly, I read her post and mentally agreed to disagree. If you were able to air your views on Christianity politely and in a rational way, people might well listen. But calling other people sick and slagging off their beliefs out of hand isn't going to win you any politeness awards. > and how adding any hint of it to B7 characters >would be "twisting" them or committing "character assassination" against >them. As someone else pointed out, the B7 universe was canonically >non-Christian in nature (in fact, we don't know that they practiced any >religion whatsoever). Trying to apply Christian morality to the show IS >twisting it. But the difference is that Kathryn has never tried to apply Christian morality to B7. She has never insisted that Christianity on B7 is canonical. She has never, to my knowledge, attempted to foist a story in which the Liberator crew are all devout Christians onto other people. She has said repeatedly that she respects that other people have different belief systems and feelings about homosexuality. You, on the other hand, keep insisting that the rest of us either appreciate slash fiction or shut up. Which of you two is the more tolerant, I ask you? >Why don't you try putting the shoe on the other foot and think >about how YOU might feel. If you can. Why don't you try being polite to Kathryn for a change, Annie? You might find people don't react to your posts quite so angrily then. Shane "This is the day that was prophesied, the day our law foretold. They have come from the sky to destroy us. They will burn the stars to light their way."--Chel Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015

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Re: Homophobia
by Shane Little 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Leah wrote: >To draw a direct parallel in the hopes of understanding, let's say you are a >devoutly religious Catholic, and you choose to write B7 stories with the >viewpoint that your belief is shared by some of the fictional members of the >LIBERATOR crew. They aren't bible thumpers, but you write fanfic where, in >the privacy of their own quarters, they exercize their spirituality. You >enjoy this, because it helps you to identify more closely with these favorite >characters, or because you find it entertaining....despite the fact that no >such belief was shown on the show. Actually, your Catholic analogy doesn't work at all. Most of the people who read and write slash are not gay men, they are (mostly straight) women writing about men having gay sex. Therefore, the parallell could only work if it were, say, a Jew who liked to write about Catholics for some reason or other. In which case, the Jew doing the writing shouldn't be surprised when people who know a little bit more about Catholicism than her come in and say "that's not the way Catholics act at all." And if she says "I don't care about what Catholics really act like, I'm just writing these stories because they titillate me," she shouldn't be surprised if people get a little bit offended. But to assume for a minute that your parallell does work: Supposing you're a devout Jew, or an atheist. Then supposing you join a mailing list and find half the list asserting that the Liberator crew were indeed Catholic and going through their tapes pointing out statements that could vaguely resemble the catechism; pick up a zine (or get given one by a well-meaning friend) and find all the stories in it chock full of crucifixes, pietas and the divine intervention of the Blessed Virgin Mary? And then, when you object to this, people start calling you a bigot and saying that you're sick? >How would you feel if some vocal non-Catholics leaped in and declared your >fanfic category 'invalid' Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the word "non-canonical" is different to the word "invalid." , or worse yet, distasteful and a twisting of the >characters...even an assassination of them? Would you be just a wee bit >insulted, if only because your *own* lifestyle had just been belittled? But if you were a Catholic, and were reading a story about Catholics by a non-Catholic, mightn't you feel as if your own lifestyle were being misrepresented? And then when you object, the non-Catholics start saying that you're misrepresenting _their_ lifestyle? Anyway, last time I looked slash wasn't a lifestyle. If it's gotten to the point where it _is_ your lifestyle, Leah, perhaps you should look into getting some other hobbies. >Even >if it were only just your taste, those individuals are not showing you >respect, as a fellow fan. Like Fiona, Tavia, Elynne and most other people on this thread I think, I'll show respect to someone who shows respect to me and my views. You might want to think about why I don't show _you_ much respect, Leah. >And that's one thing everyone owes everyone on a >fannish mailing list. Yes, they are entitled to their taste...to the same >degree and limitations that you are. Empathy is the only way a society can >function, no matter how small. Is this the same person who was slagging off Christians not twelve hours ago as narrow-minded and bigoted? Or who keeps coming in telling anti-slash fans that they just have to get used to it and if they don't like it they should just shut up? Or who asserted about three weeks back that people who don't have regular sex are abnormal? And who draws sexually explicit pictures of people who have asked her to stop? Forgive me, but this change of heart just doesn't ring true, some how. Shane Largo: Why do I feel as if I'm on trial here? Avon: Why do I feel as if you should be? Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015

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Re: [B7L] reasons
by Shane Little 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Una wrote: >Shane wrote: > > > Lisa wrote: > > > > >In my case, the fact that I read slash doesn't mean I don't read anything > > >else. (Fanfic itself is a very small proportion of my reading, and I read > > >both gen and slash if I come across something to my taste.) But even if it > > >did -- and I know people who won't read any fanfic other than slash -- what > > >of it? People aren't obligated to read what they don't like simply because > > >you think they ought to have the "experience". Nor are they likely to > > >derive much benefit from an experience consisting primarily of boredom. > > > > I'm sure Neil Faulkner and the other gen writers out there are delighted to > > hear that their writing is boring, as compared to a PWP. > >Given that isn't what Lisa said, I'm neither delighted nor horrified. I think she did, you know. Read it again, and I think you'll see what I mean :). Shane "What the--?"--Vila Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015

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Re: [B7L] reasons
by Shane Little 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Louise wrote: > Shane wrote: > > >But if they're presenting two characters in a gay relationship, then they > >_are_ writing about my lifestyle. I'm a gay man in a gay relationship. > Hence > >my concern. If somebody, say, wrote a story about a Muslim character which > >totally misrepresented Islam, would you say to Muslims who objected: "Oh, > >they weren't writing about _your_ religion"? > > Sorry, Shane, but I just can't see this one. Islam is a specific religion > with a large set of specific written regulations which it's followers > adhere to, and therefore there is a very definite 'right' and 'wrong' as > far as writing about that religion goes. I just can't agree that sexual > orientation falls into the same category; there are no written guidelines > that all homosexuals must follow. But there are Muslims and Muslims, too. Some Muslims interpret the Koran in a very strict and literalistic way; some don't. Bosnian Muslims live a much different lifestyle to Afghan Muslims and Saudi Arabians, and all of these live much different lifestyles to Cat Stevens. But none of them are any less Muslims, and if any one of these objected to the portrayal of their religion, you can't just say "Oh, but the others aren't objecting, so it's OK." While I don't deny that there is a > definite gay lifestyle for some young gay men, I doubt it bears much > resemblance to the lifestyle of gay men in their mid-to-late thirties, > which is the age of the characters in most slash. I _don't_ believe that > there's a specific lifestyle for gay men approaching middle age any more > than I believe in a specific lifestyle for heterosexuals of the same age. > Once people get past their twenties, they tend to do their own thing more > than doing the trendy thing. Well, yes and no. I wasn't so much thinking of the rainbow-Lycra-and-quiff crowd when I was talking about lifestyle, though I can see how you might have interpreted it that way. What I meant is that it's a very different thing to share your house and life with a man than with a woman, and some of these differences are really very subtle. Often what I see in slash is just a kind of "Darby and Joan, only it's Darby and John" portrayal-- a straight couple, but the woman has a penis. Or else, as I said, in the case of the "...Kirk's not gay, he just..." stories, there's a total denial of gay culture, which affects gay people whether or not they're in the mainstream of it or not. Shane "Spare me the amateur psychology" --Avon Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015

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Blakes7 March 2001