Leia Fee wrote:

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I said...

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I'm not quite sure where the idea that Gan got the limiter because he

was a danger to woman came from.

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the Jenny said...

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That would have been Terry Nation and Chris Boucher.

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Forgive me. I didn't realise they actually had said as much.

Perhaps you should watch the series again?

I was under

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the impression that it was just a theory you (and others) had.

No.

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Jenny said...

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He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha.

Accepted.

And it does prove that Gan has lied.

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b) he goes for Cally while his limiter is on the fritz

And Jenna earlier on. He only attacks Blake when he tries to stop him.

All right.

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And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or refers to it again.

Using lack of evidence as evidence in itself is not usually a good idea.

It's not lack of evidence, it's negative evidence, there's a difference. We're talking a character-defining moment here. And it's very interesting that we had just seen very similar events happening on Cygnus Alpha (Gan connects with a woman whose name he doesn't know, she is killed by a guard, he kills the guard), to somebody who wasn't on Cygnus Alpha and wouldn't have seen those events. He doesn't tell Vila that story when he has the chance earlier in "Time Squad," you notice. If somebody talks about something that important in that way and never refers to it again...

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None of the others talk about their past with the Federation much either.

They do when it's as important as this. And like I said, who said it was the Federation?

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To use the only other example we have of the crew's past love lives...how often does Avon speak about Anna other than in the episode we actually

see

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her?

Countdown, Children of Auron. Haven't been paying attention have you:-)?

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If Gan has been fitted with a limiter there is a reason for it.

Indeed. But the evidence doesn't point for certain at that reason being

a

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violent hatred of women.

I think there is a lot of evidence that it does.

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Jenny wrote...

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A monk killed Kara who showed affection to Gan. That's where Gan got the story from.

Or the situation mirrored his past and he was so enraged by it happening again that *that's* why he was able to override the limiter and kill the

guy.

That would mean that the writer was working backwards. If that event on Cygnus Alpha had taken place after Time Squad, you'd have a point. But before? Also, Gan quite clearly isn't in a rage when he kills the monk. He appears quite rational.

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we are talking about Gan's cover story here. In TWB Blake states "I'm innocent, of what I was charged with anyway". Vila replies, "We

have

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something in common then.We are all victims of a miscarriage of

justice."

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"It's true!" Protests Blake, "Of course it is!" says Jenna. They don't believe him, because they know that many guilty people, even after conviction, will protest their innocence. They also know that many will

lie about what they are convicted of. TWB was written and script-edited

by

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the same two people who wrote and script-edited all of the first season.

Er, are you saying that since Jenna did not initially believe Blake was innocent that Gan must therefore be guilty? Sorry, I don;t quite grasp

the

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point you're trying to make.

Okay. I'll try and put it more clearly then. The scene in TWB shows that the author is aware of the prison convention that most people say they are innocent even when they aren't. And that most prisoners are dismissive of other people's claims of innocence. Gan's story takes place on the Liberator flight deck. "So what?" you say, well, the context of the environment will impact on people. A prisoner who may be charged with stealing a loaf of bread may very well state, while in prison, that he is on an attempted murder charge, because that has more cachet, and will give him a bit more respect from fellow prisoners. But outside he isn't going to say that, is he?

On the Liberator flight deck Gan gives Jenna a story. In the holding cell on earth, it is doubtful that she would have believed it, but by this episode a lot of things have happened. 1/ Blake's a nice guy after all and was innocent. (Though interestingly she doesn't appear to know what he was convicted of) 2/ Gan appears friendly and has helped them. 3/ Blake the leader has welcomed Gan into the crew. 4/ Gan tells a sob story about how his woman was killed and how he was unfairly convicted.

Well, this all makes sense to Jenna. The Federation are bastards after all. They framed Blake. They don't care about justice. They framed Gan too. See? Makes sense doesn't it? No. They framed Blake because he was political. They haven't framed the others though. Vila even appears to admit his guilt. Avon was also justly found guilty. And so ironically was Jenna. So why frame Gan? He killed a guard? No. What's a guard? Cannon fodder. They are ten a penny. "Ah, yes", you say "but the guard represented the state." So? They could easily have done what they did with Travis. "We are good. Travis was an evil man. We are showing you how good we are by bringing this man to justice." You see? A pro keeps it simple. You don't go to the trouble of altering a crime scene to convict a big lunk like Gan. You don't spend money unnecessarily fitting a man with a limiter unless there is something to limit. And if the state is pretending to be fair (see Sally Manton's recent and very intelligent post on the matter) you don't act in such a grossly unfair way by fitting a man with a limiter and sending him to a penal colony because he killed someone that murdered his wife/lover/girlfriend/whatever. It would involve a massive conspiracy. And for what? Nothing.

Now for fairness sake, lets look at the circumstances of the alleged killing. A guard kills Gan's woman. Why? Has the guard got a death wish? The entire Dome appears to be tripped out with security cameras. If a guard killed Gan's woman and is seen by security then he's going to be arrested. Or at the very least taken outside and shot. You don't want people like that in the army. They are there to obey orders, not go about killing people unnecessarily. "Okay," you say, "but we see guards shooting down people on Zondawl". Yes,we do, and what are these people? They are zonked out on drugs. Literally brain dead. All they can do is dribble. Different situation in the Domes on the earth. Here the people have more freedom. The Federation is pretending that it is fair. They want people to work, not dribble. You don't want to upset that balance by employing a homicidal guard. Anyway, the guards get plenty of chances to kill all the people they want legitimately.

So, if the killing took place, it took place somewhere quiet, away from surveillance. One of the lower levels maybe. Or outside. Basically the woman would have to be alone when she was killed. You don't murder people in public. Bad publicity. But if she's alone with a murdering guard, then Gan must also have been there. He says that he killed a guard that killed his woman. Therefore he must have known who the guard was, but how? They wear masks for a start. Also this killer guard is not going to advertise the fact that he has just murdered someone either, is he? Conclusion: Gan was present at the time.

So this is what we have. Gan, his woman and a guard are in one of the lower levels. Perhaps Gan and his woman were trying to escape? But where to? To the people of the Dome "outside" appears to be an alien environment. Perhaps Gan has political connections? But he never mentions them. He doesn't say, "I was part of the rebels, I tried to escape. My woman was shot in the process." That would be a great thing to say. Because it would elicit maximum sympathy in the environment he's now in. But he doesn't. Why? Because it's too much information. Blake, who is a rebel himself, might know he's lying. So Gan keeps it simple. And if it's a sob story, decorum dictates that you don't keep probing the poor guy about it. So Gan tells one person: Jenna. And one day Jenna will tell the others. "Poor Gan", says Cally, "The Federation is run by barbarians!" Jenna nods in agreement, "That implant gives him terrible headaches you know." "Does it?" "Yes, he tries to hide it but Blake's noticed as well." Cally shakes her head sadly, "Poor Gan. Have you noticed how he doesn't like being left on his own?" "It must be the trauma of what happened. Poor innocent Gan. He's not very bright, but his poor broken heart is in the right place."

Actually, Gan *is* bright. Strange that.

Also look at the amount of guards that were waiting for Blake when he returned from the outside. If Gan and his woman was detected trying to operate the outer door, then why would security send one guard? And why just shoot the woman? If this was the scenario then why not shoot Gan as well? After all he's just killed one of their number with his bare hands. Doesn't make sense does it? And if they are going to put him on trial, how are they going to explain his missing woman? A pro keeps it simple. If Gan and his woman were political and they were trying to escape the dome, then the guards would have just shot then both dead. No pissing about. (See the massacre in TWB)

The only other scenario is that Gan was alone with a woman in the lower levels, because he took her there to kill her, and the guards found him.

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When he is strangling Cally it is a deliberate act. He is smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do that? If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions.

If it had stopped working completely then that would be true.

Thank you.

We know it

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is still doing *something*, Avon says as much. It is still actively but sending scrambled signals.

At the time Avon is looking at it, that is true. But the limiter has developed a fault. What if the Limiter is now cutting in and out? There is certainly evidence for that. Gan is quite merrily strangling Cally and then the ship lurches. Gan is thrown back, he advances on Cally again, and then he grabs his head in pain and flees.

The brain is remarkably complex and I wouldn't

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presume to speculate on what messing with it might do to persons personality and behaviour.

Yes, but we aren't really talking about a brain, are we? We are talking about a subtext, put in by two smart writers. And they *are* smart, you don't get employed by the BBC if you're thick. (Unless it's in management of course:-))

Anyway people can undergo fairly extensive brain surgery without it changing their personality. It depends on the sort of surgery and where.

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This is not the illogical actions of a man who has been driven to violence by pain caused by a malfunctioning limiter. These are

deliberate

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actions. They have a pattern.

Yes they are calculated, violent, whatever. We assume from the fact he

has

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the limiter he is unstable and violent. I personally would not think killing someone in revenge is the act of an amiable friendly chap.

I agree.

I'm not

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actually arguing that point. What I'm disagreeing with is the idea that his violence is specifically targeted at women.

I think the way he reacts to Jenna, Cally and Avalon suggest that he *is* specifically targeting women.

This is how Kara fits in. Gan sees a mysterious woman on Cygnus Alpha. Gan immediately leaves the group and follows her. He can't kill her of course, but;

"Old habits die hard, Sinofar".

"I know."

When they finally meet Kara kisses him. And later shouts a warning cry, saving his life and effectively dies for him. If Gan has problems with relating to women, then what happens with Kara must have had an impact on him. She kissed him. She died for him. He doesn't know her name, but she now has a connection to him. In a sense, she could even be called "his woman". It becomes part of his mental furniture, crafted to fit in with the general pattern of self loathing and hatred. "A woman who loves me kisses me when she sees me. A woman who despises me will not. I will be attracted to her, but she will not kiss me. I am shit. I am hopeless. I am unloved.These people can see this in me. I am worthless. They secretly laugh at me. And every time I see them it tells me how worthless and unloved I am."

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Yes it could have, but it wasn't. The writer has set it up so that it is Cally and Jenna who are attacked.

I hesitate to say it, loving the show as I do...but it is pretty typical for the girlies to get into trouble and need rescuing...even in B7. I don't read much into it.

I can see that you love the show. But I'm going to tell you something now. So did Chris Boucher, so did Terry Nation. Most of the production was shit. But that's the BBC. If I'm allowed to go through all the episodes with everyone, and I'm not howled down by the IMO's, then you'll see what I mean. As a very good friend of mine--no stranger to production--has repeatedly hammered into my skull, "There is no such thing as coincidence in script writing."

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The word "my" is the possessive.

I talk about 'my partner' too. Doesn't mean I think I own him or am

going

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to top him or anyone else if I lose him.

Then why call S/he "my" then? Don't you love your partner? Do you share this person with someone else?

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Doesn't automatically make it right.

I think it does.

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There is just as much evidence for a number of views.

As I have stated before the writers are conducting a double game. But if and when we go through the series, you'll see that the weight of evidence favours Gan the woman killer. And you know why? Because it's there.

Jenny

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