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5511 discussions

Re: Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Helen Krummenacker 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

I think the problem comes from evaluating each man by his own standard. Avon is frequently better than the standards he claims to hold; he is selfish, but, proving he does not need his friends in a practical way, he still risks himself to help them, for instance. Blake has different standards, better in most people's eyes. Everyone who likes Avon is aware of this. Blake is an idealist. That makes his point of view more popular, his standards closer to the ones of mainstream society today. And yet the holding of several strong moral standards means at times one need will oppose the other. Can you fight for freedom and yet not give those directly opposing you a free choice without being a hypocrite to some degree? When Avon laughs at Vila as an "intelligent flea", he's being Avon. Love him or strangle him, he is what we expect and sometimes loathe. When Blake does it, he isn't being the Blake we want to see. A real hero has to be heroic whenever he is in our view. An antihero can be heroic once a season and be appealling, because rather than letting us down, he's boosting us up. In short, we have lower expectations of Avon because he's told us what to expect from him. If Blake claims moral high ground, he has to act in a way to back that claim.

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RE: Blake bashing versus Avon worship
by Mel Saxby 01 Dec '01

01 Dec '01

In my early days as a B7 fan, I actually preferred Travis. When he finally got his (possibly)just reward, I gradually transferred the focus of my interest to Avon, whom I had always liked in a casual way. But since I returned to the fandom after a very long absence, and discovered the Net, I've also come to appreciate Blake as I hadn't when I was a teenager. He isn't as obviously attractive as Avon, but there's still a lot there to appreciate. I hate to see him traduced without good cause. The standard accusation is manipulation, but I think it's more a case of him being able to persuade the others by the sheer force of his personality and convictions. As intelligent as Avon is, Blake has the upper hand over him every time. I can't think of an instance during the first or second series where Avon really got the best of the argument. Blake always seemed to have the measure of him. Yes, Avon is a great survivor, and a terrific character, and I love PD's performance, but the more I think about it, the more I admire Blake. Denying Blake's importance unbalances the series. If the depths don't seem to be there, look further. What kind of courage must it take to fight, when your mind has been ripped apart, your identity violated? I only wish I could claim such courage. Mel --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01

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: Re: [B7L] Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Sally Manton 01 Dec '01

01 Dec '01

Mel said: <I've been over to Louise and Simon's newish forum a few times. A lot of lively discussions seem to be taking place. But I've noticed a strong bias towards Avon, at the expense of Blake.> and Dana: <It's all a matter of perspective - *I* think that L&S contains much unjustified Avon-bashing.> Actually, I've found it rather disconcerting to go to lists/forums other than the Lyst and FC - there *is* a lot more of the (what I find) old-fashioned bashing and swooning going on :-) Maybe it's because this is a <ahem> more mature list, and a lot of the regular posters have been here for some time and have been there, done that (or never wanted to ;-)) It *is* very unusual to find Avon being scarified in a non-fictional sense ... but Blake (along with Tarrant) *does* still draw the bulk of the unreasoned battering (sorry Dana, but from the POV of someone who adores 'em both ...). And it tends to centre round the Usual Arguments, exhibit A: Star One, and Exhibit B: Gauda Prime. The latter has *always* been a biggie, I can't count the number of fanfic stories I've read where Avon is exonerated from shooting an unarmed, innocent man (and one of the two people he cared about most) on the grounds that It's All Blake's Fault Anyway. Mel again: <Avon is intelligent, resourceful, courageous, but he is also very selfish, uncaring, avaricious. Yet he's forgiven acts forwhich Blake is condemned.> Sally's Sixth Rule - Wear Black Leather, Have a Killer Smile and Get Away with (Literally) Murder... And Dana: <Because he's a more interesting character.> Well, not really. He has more surface appeal, I'll agree happily. He's pretty, and acid-tongued and *entertainingly* nasty. When I first got back into Blake's 7, Avon was definitely my favourite character (Blake was second, but it *was* second), but the more I watched it, the more equally my interest was captured. Once I started digging under the surface, they're both complex, contradictory and fascinating characters - Blake is a more unusual creation, and therefore (IMO) that much harder to come to grips with. I agree whole-heartedly with Mel's: < I feel that to understand Avon, you have at least to appreciate Blake. Not like him, necessarily, but accept his importance to Avon, as an antagonist/friend.> I recall reading one of Judith Proctor's posts, where she suggested much the same thing - that to understand the dynamic, you have to try and look at Blake through Avon's eyes, to try and see what *he* found so fascinating and worthwhile in the man. And that leads to the question of what it is about Avon that does respond to those things ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: Blake bashing versus Avon worship (long)
by Mel Saxby 01 Dec '01

01 Dec '01

Dana wrote: It's all a matter of perspective--*I* think that L&S contains much unjustified Avon-bashing. Agreed. I can't say I like the Avon-bashing any more than the Blake-bashing. It's just the way some people seem to think he's the answer to everything. Sometimes he is, of course. But sometimes he's the problem. But I don't go for the 'Avon is a psychopathic killer with no heart' theory, anyway. He has a few tendancies that way, that's all. >Blake has faults, too, but they are more forgivable, IMO. Blake > is flawed, yes, but he is fighting a great evil in the only way he knows. Speaking only for myself, it's the WAY he goes about it that bothers me-- he needs structure. True. But Avon could have provided some of that, without necessarily needing to become a wholehearted believer in the cause. >Avon > is intelligent, resourceful, courageous, but he is also very selfish, > uncaring, avaricious. Yet he's forgiven acts for which Blake is condemned. Because he's a more interesting character. Can't really argue with that. Paul Darrow hit the jackpot with the part. But he's at his most interesting with someone strong like Blake to spark off. The two actors played well off each other, which in turn strengthened the characters. Mel Saxby [who should really learn not to post when she's pissed :-)] --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01

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Blake Bashing versus Avon worship (long)
by Mel Saxby 01 Dec '01

01 Dec '01

As no one has been terribly controversial lately, I thought I would throw this into the arena, for general savaging. Please excuse me if I rant too much, I'm slightly well-oiled on Irish whiskey! I've been over to Louise and Simon's newish forum a few times. A lot of lively discussions seem to be taking place. But I've noticed a strong bias towards Avon, at the expense of Blake. Now, I love our Avon, I really do, but I've never been blind to his faults. He seems to me to be a man often struggling against his worst nature, and frequently losing, but doing his best to be true to himself, if no one else. But he has many, many bad qualities. Blake has faults, too, but they are more forgivable, IMO. Blake is flawed, yes, but he is fighting a great evil in the only way he knows. Why is it then that Avon has so many supporters on the L and S forum, (and elsewhere) and Blake apparently so few? All right, Avon is more glamorous, maybe, but I find the sometimes vitriolic condemnation of Blake and his character and motives a bit hard to take. He isn't always right, but he's doing the best he can, driven by a principle which is after all, surely good one: the desire for freedom for everyone, not merely the favoured few. Avon is intelligent, resourceful, courageous, but he is also very selfish, uncaring, avaricious. Yet he's forgiven acts forwhich Blake is condemned. I believe Blake is sincere in his aims. Not necessarily without fault, but doing what is right by his beliefs. He seeks to persuade the crew, not manipulate them in a cynical way. He leads from the front as much as possible, and he's not afraid to die, even for a principle which may seem pointless to a man like Avon. Avon, when his turn comes, is not a very good leader. To his credit, he doesn't really claim to be, but he has by default assumed a position of authority after Star One, and cannot really evade the converse: responsibility; although he frequently tries to. He wants to give orders without bearing the consequences, be detached from the crew while having them do as he wants when it suits him. I really do like Avon. But more and more I feel that to understand Avon, you have at least to appreciate Blake. Not like him, necessarily, but accept his importance to Avon, as an antagonist/friend. I hate to see Blake knocked just because he isn't supposed to be as smart as Avon. If you look at the series, Blake had the upper hand on Avon all the way to Star One. Avon is a very important character, without whom the series would be much the poorer. But it's still called 'Blake's'7, isn't it? Mel --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01

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Advent calendar
by Steve Rogerson 01 Dec '01

01 Dec '01

Louise and Simon have put this year's advent calendar up at: http://www.blakes-7.co.uk/cgi-bin/advent/adventcalendar.pl -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] Re: Music videos, was site update
by Steve Kilbane 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Iain: > > Travis I: Henry Rollins > > Travis II: Tony Hadley > > Now that's just cruel. Quite possibly, but I'm compelled to ask: to whom? steve

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Ring One?
by Dana Shilling 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

There's a snippy article in today's Wall Street Journal ("The Battle of the Books," Brian M. Carney) saying that Harry Potter books can't be very good because The Lord of the Rings is much better. Doesn't seem like a logical argument to me...however, ObB7: "When Socrates wanted to examine whether the just or the unjust man was happier, he employed a myth in which a man finds a ring that allows him to become invisible and so, if he chooses, to commit terrible crimes with impunity. Tolkien (belatedly) takes up Socrates' inquiry by attempting to show that the man who uses such a ring--even the good man--is worse off than he who would destroy it. [...] Thus Tolkien's ring is most dangerous to its wisest and most powerful characters--princes and wizards who can be made to believe that they will wield absolute power benevolently." -(Y)

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RE: [B7L] Language and mums
by Nicola Mody-Nikoloff 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Leia Fee wrote: > Nico wrote... > >With me it was always 'dead at the bottom of a cliff'. It was a joke > >between me and my sister. And very usable too in the B7 > universe with all > >their cliffs and quarries; you'd have to replace your bus > with something > >else. ;-) > > Hmm yes. We don't see much ground transport in B7 do we? > > What common accident's could mum's worry about? Well, now. In no particular order: Various illnesses, like: Andromeda-strain flu :-) radiation sickness Auron or Fosforon plague Venusian lungworm Casarus swamp fever Falling into a volcano (yeah, a variation on the old cliff) Being killed by hairy aliens Being turned into spare parts on Chenga Having your blood drunk by a mutoid Having your brain extracted Holing your spacesuit while exploring a black hole Being eaten by giant spiders or snakes Being held for ransom by Amagons (and losing your head) Alien possession Being bent by space-rats Being drugged with pylene-50 Having your spaceship eaten by enzymes Being sold as a white slave on Domo Going out an airlock without a spacesuit Betraying Avon Nico *** This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. ***

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Another personality "test"
by Leia Fee 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Edam, Hmph. The wax usually has more flavour than the cheese. I think I'm insulted ;-) Leia

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