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Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Ellynne G. 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

OK, I will admit my language defense was a little off. I was trying not to step out of the box on this one. Stepping outside of the show, I know the he/she pronoun issue had been heating up at the time this show was written, but I believe the use of masculine forms as neuter or when gender was unknown/uncertain was still widely accepted without much thought. That may say something about bias in our own culture, but it seems unfair to penalize an author for slipping into a common usage of his own time. Especially since the author was dealing with a scenario in which the story was one where an author these days could be excused for forgetting to give Meegat gender neutral language (temporarily disregarding arguments about other gender issues). As for the Aztecs, it wasn't stupidity that made them mistake Cortez for a god. It was a very detailed tradition that Cortez happened to fit with freaky perfection. The Hawaii incident is less clear. They may or may not have thought Cook was a god. In both cases, the groups seem to have caught on rather fast (though not fast enough in the Aztecs case [still, they may already have been doomed. I understand something like a third of them died from smallpox carried by ONE of Cortez' men (although I'd have to look that up again to be certain). Civilizations don't just bounce back from things like that, especially when expansionist hostiles have entered the territory]).

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Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by J MacQueen 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

>From: "emma" <emmapeel(a)calvino.freeserve.co.uk> >(very quiet scared-don't-usually-get-involved-in-debates voice, please >don't shout!) If you can be heard over the hooves of the hobbyhorse, of course. <shrug> I should talk. But then again, the only one of my hobbyhorses that gets regular exercise, these days, is that damned Deathwatch Jacket. Now there's a perennial favourite - what Avon is wearing at any given time, rather than what might be going on in his head. Not that the latter isn't highly prized, if it comes to that... Regards Joanne (little sleep, horrible weather, homesickness, etc. No wonder my brain feels like a souffle. The only thing it's grasping just at the moment is this tennis match, Sexism vs Lazy Writing. Please let me know later on who won, or if it was a draw. Won't surprise if it's a draw, though.) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Subject: Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Sally Manton 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

Stephen wrote: <I don't imagine they'd have done something really radical like leave Avon tied up in a tent for most of the episode, and have Jenna meet a personable young bloke in flowing robes, who thought she was the Messiah. - Sorry Sally.> <Sigh for lost opportunities ...> S'allright, I don't think I'm the only one who would have much preferred to see My Darling bound and gagged by hairy barbarians ... <I love the bit when she reassures Gan and Vila that the Lord Avon will protect them.> Oh yes - and would have liked to see Jenna's face at that line too, given their history. Blake? <Power is frankly, rather confused and silly, but there is a definite streak of misogyny in Steed's scripts (the whole Avon-Pella dynamic, for example) which I think is absent from Nation's. (I agree with Neil here).> There are in fact three main episodes where this god/dominant male bit rears its head - Deliverance, Power and Sand. The reason I find it far less grating in Deliverance is because Terry Nation at least had the sense to make *Avon* aware of how silly it is. And after Ellynne said: <Er, it's just possible the rocket looked like a rocket because that's what rockets look like, isn't it? I don't recall Freud being hired as a consultant for NASA.> Wendy answered: <No. The author used a rocket because it looked like a giant phallus.> No. The *director* used a rocket because that's what he had the spare BBC stock footage of that he could use (and at that stage, rocket-shaped rockets were probably the only ones they had stock footage of). Why go to the totally unneccessary expense (given B7's miniscule budget) of making a new pc-shaped model? And after *I* wrote <g> <For the most part, he treats her rather nicely, but as a sweet, idiot child.> Wendy wrote: <Okay then, so he treated her like an idiot child instead of murdering her or beating her up. But that's hardly respecting a woman's intelligence, maturity, humanity, ability to make her own decisions etc.> Errrmmm ... this is Kerr Avon, not Dudley Do-Right. He doesn't respect *anyone's* "intelligence, maturity, humanity, etc" (except Blake's IMO, and I wouldn't bet any money on the maturity bit); *everyone*, male, female or something-else-completely, is an idiot, and gets told so in no uncertain terms. Do we really want him to suddenly turn into someone out of Star Trek, just for one episode? JMHO and no offence meant ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Subject: Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Sally Manton 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

Wendy wrote: <I think the evidence in a lot of episodes, especially deliverance, suggests that PD's interpretation of the character was *not* as a macho psychopath,> He also made it clear in interviews (and in "Avon: A Terrible Interpretation") that he did too see and thought he was playing Avon as a callous and fairly brutal MachoMan. The fact that he was wrong (about what he was actually doing :-)) is just our good luck. <How can you back something up with "evidence", if by your own admission, you are just reading something you choose to see into the episode, an episode that you agree is sexist?> Re-read my post. I gave the reasons for my interpretation - the way Avon and Meegat actually act in the episode being the central ones. The fact that you don't see it doesn't make it invalid for me, since you are also reading a lot of things *you choose* to see into it, and the fact that I and some others don't see it doesn't make it invalid for you. <What you are saying hear is that it's okay for a woman to conform to a sexual stereotype, as long as it gets the man to do what she wants.> She's acting naturally - she is not doing it to get him to do what she wants, she is doing it because that is how she sees *him* (not how she sees men, for goodness sake - look at the way she *totally* ignores both Vila and Gan.) and what she sees his role is, a prophesised Lord to complete a particular very vital task. The reason it's Avon (and not Jenna or Cally or Blake or whoever) is that - quite correctly - Terry Nation realised that none of the others would be nearly as much fun to *watch* in this situation (except maybe Vilakins). <This is true, but by that implication it means the Avon is just using her.> And she's not using him? Or are you suggesting that Avon - *Avon*, for goodness sake! - should put political correctness before survival? If he did, he would *not* be the Avon I know and love (despite himself) and I wouldn't want to watch him. <As for people left behind to a terrible fate,it has happened before,look at every other single prisoner who came to Cygnus Alpha on the London, for example.> And it's made clear in Cygnus Alpha that the ones left behind *chose that option*. Blake gave them the choice (at the top of his not inconsiderable voice). We have no evidence Meegat and her peple weren't given the same option; you can't deny anyone else the assumption that they weren't, since you are likewise assuming without evidence that they were. <So Gan's cruel then is he? This is a situation the author has set up. We should be looking at the implications of the scenario and not how various characters react to it.> Oh. I see. However, I *totally * disagree with this, and with the idea that people "should" be watching the show for any reasons but their own, and what they personally want to get out of it. I'm sorry, but it's clear that you and I watch Blake's 7 for totally different reasons, since as far as I'm concerned "how characters react" is central to my enjoyment of the show; I'm not interested in how Generic-SF-hero *should* act, but how Blake, being Roj, and Avon, being Kerr, *do* act. Obviously this isn't so for you, and no reason why it should be. But I really think it means you and I at least have no common ground to discuss, so I'm afraid this is where it comes to a . _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Penberriss Wendy S. 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

--- Marian de Haan <maya(a)multiweb.nl> wrote: > Wendy wrote: > >Recently I have watched the episode Deliverance and > was surprised to see > how sexist it was! Worse than Power, even!< > > In what way? Avon behaves like a gentleman to > Meegat, he doesn't grab, kiss > or shoot her. In what way!? Are you kidding? After a bit of Freudian imagery of Avon firing off a big rocket and fertalising her race, he then leaves her to die of radiation poisoning on Cephlon, having taken away her reason for living! A case if wham, bang, thank you man. What a sexist pig! Wendy __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Sally Manton 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

Wendy wrote: <That's your interpretation, not necessarily Terry Nation's. It seems to me that you are reinterpreting a disturbing scenario to make it more comfortable for yourself.> Agreed that Terry Nation wrote a sexist plot, but what has that to do with it? That's like saying Paul Darrow played Avon as a silly psychpathic macho Dirty Harry so that's what *we have* to see Avon as. No we don't. As the viewer, I have the perfect right to read into any episode anything I see, or indeed anything I want/choose to, as long as I can back it up with evidence. After all, you're interpreting it to make it considerably blacker than I do (ps - this is how character discussions get tangled up too :-)) which is your right, but I agree with Neil about not seeing your Freudian overtones. So what? You do, and you're allowed to. <You are saying that she is in control and almost assured,yet subservient!> She's comfortable - he's most definitely *not*. She's falling at his feet and calling him Lord - but *he's* the one doing what *she* wants, remember. Everything is being done *in accordance with her plan*. (Avon says that his arrival is a 'poor reward' - Gan flat out tells her that they're just men. Meegat is not listening, and why should she?) <This again is your interpretation, but however you interpret it, the fact remains that Avon goes along with it.> Of course. After all - 1. They're on a radiotive, lethally dangerous world, she's only helped them because she thinks he's/they're her 'gods'. If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't risk too much disillusionment in case I lost that help. 2. They're trying to work out what she wants them to do for her (i e they're trying to help her). To do that, they need the full story, to get that they need her trust. 3. As said above, once they do have the story straight, Gan does try to disillusion her. She doesn't hear what she doesn't want to. And you could say that to destroy the illusion she's given her life to - when they're going to be out *of* that life in a number of years - is sheer cruelty. 3. Yes, it's flattering. But remember Blake's last line (and Blake knows his Avon very well). "I don't like the responsibility either." Avon may have found the worshipping flattering (who wouldn't - and be honest, you lot!!) but the whole thing made him unconfortable as well (he's rather taken aback by someone who thinks he's even more wonderful than (he* does!!) <And how exactly did you figure that, considering that he didn't write in any suggestion at all that she was supposed to go up with it?> I *said* he screwed it up. Our Heroes don't do things like that <g> <Again, I don't follow. It would be equally fair to infer (and make a bit more sense, given that nobody seems to have any problems with it) that she was left behind without a second thought.> That *doesn't* make any sense to me, because it's totally unlike them all. There's no more evidence of your interpretation than mine, and it makes far more sense given the characters involved. <Since there is no evidence for that, it sounds again more like you're trying to make the story sound less disturbing for yourself.> Did you miss the <g>? That one was a *joke* (Blake and Gan would have insisted on *having* her out on the flight deck - Vila too, but for his own invidious reasons). My own opinion is - as said - she and the others didn't want to leave. The episode is silly in a lot of ways, but I still like it for Avon's decidedly un-godlike embarrassment, Vilakins' teasing and Gan's noble refraining from teasing. It's a character-junkie episode. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Just a quick question... or two... or three
by M 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

Firstly Calle I seem to have a problem, I seem to be getting messages in the wrong order - eg a reply to a message before that message - thereby getting a little confusing. Is anyone else finding this ??!! Secondly ditto convention virgin and I think I can come to Redemption - thereby similar question as asked before, whats there, whats it like, what do you do etc... M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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RE: deliverance (Imipak)
by M 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

48 posts, wow I never thought I'd get through them - 1) deliverance - I dont think its sexist. I think Avon's the most obvious dominant/ lord like of them and consequently she picks him. Jenna isnt there, so that isnt an issue. They are not flying the rocket, but are ground control, aka computers aka Avon. OK she gets a bit too - my lord (gushing). But I see it as a kind of religion where the deciples follow a mythos, thereby she meets her 'gods' kind of. We see this in Cygnus. Jenna isnt weak, just cant fight loads of hairy primitives, neither could the others, they hide in the bunker. Also we get to see Avon failing in his first assignment as boss - look at his earlier statement to Blake about doing better and then when Jenna is caught, Avon's guilt sets in/ or feeling of failure perhaps. He seems eager to go back to a hostile situation. Thereby the character is already shown as a potential replacement for Blake once his conscious has grown (I wont say appeared because I dont believe this). 2) IMIPAK - daft suggestion, but maybe it didn't kill Travis because it was as confused as the rest of us about his changing appearance. M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Tavia Chalcraft 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

Wendy wrote: >No, sorry Neil but Deliverance is far moremisogynistic than Power. >In Deliverance Meegat istotally subservient to Lord Avon. She's incapable >of launching the rocket herself and requires a man to do it. The rocket is >nothing more than a crude metaphorand once the gene bank is launched Avon leaves her, to die presumably. I saw Meegat as a joke intended largely to humanise Avon. The more misogynistic part of the episode was Jenna's capture and her inability to escape without rescue from three men. Tavia

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Deliverance
by Stephen Date 31 Jan '01

31 Jan '01

In response to Mistral's perceptive comments: At the time Deliverance was shown Avon was not the black clad ubermensch we came to know and love...well know anyway...and Jenna had not gone from tough independent space pilot to teleport operator and easily captured victim. (Deliverance may be debateable - The Keeper and Countdown aren't). It could therefore be argued that criticisms of Jenna's treatment in Deliverance are really criticisms of developments that happened in the second season. Nonetheless, Space Flight is Jenna's field of expertise. (In Time Squad Blake takes her over to examine the archaic (sub-light) space vessel, about which she is well informed. There is nothing to suggest that Avon is an expert in archaic methods of Space Travel until he suddenly becomes an expert in Deliverance. Time Squad also shows Jenna teaching the others how to fly the Liberator - she is obviously much more than just a space shuttle pilot). The fact that it is given to Avon in this episode whilst she is tucked away in a tent, presages the much worse things to come. IMO at least. Stephen. ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

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