Blakes7 February 2001

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80 participants
929 discussions

Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Sally wrote: >But do Mary Sues (the real thing) represent or encourage anything of the sort? >Not in my reading experience - quite the opposite. She's even more strictly >defined that a badly-written comp tech <g> and - what is much much worse - >has an appalling effect on the writing of the characters that I already know >and like. It's a bit of case of bad writing is bad writing is bad writing. To my mind there's nothing wrong with authorial presence in a story. There's also nothing wrong with adding a powerful external character, whatever his/her gender. I fear it's not what one does, it's how one does it that counts. (IMO) >There is also the Shiny Happy aspect of both the May Sue and the (mentioned by >Kathryn) James Bond types (which annoy me every bit as much in B7 fiction, >BTW). They're irritating enough in Shinier Happier universes - in this bleak, >somewhere between black-and-blacker one, peopled by bad-tempered, >pig-headed, quarrelsome, suspicious, self-centred, temperamental types >(and that's just the Good Guys), they stick out like a Rainbow Princess >Doll in a Svankmayer film. Again, shiny happy MS's are bad writing in any context -- if the MS is perfect and conflict-free he/she isn't a *character* and thus doesn't belong in the story. >And <deeply offended sniff> *I like* onboard stories No offence was intended. Great. So do I, if one doesn't mind the fact that such stories often tend to end up as pure talking heads. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Mistral wrote: >If the author wrote a character that was _actually_ what >s/he would be like in the B7 universe, it might make for a very >interesting character indeed. I tried this one with a peripheral character recently -- fed up with the (self-) accusations of writing a Mary-Sue, I decided to add a *real* one. It made an interesting contrast, but I wouldn't say she was an interesting character: as her role in the story is to act as the chorus, the anonymous citizen of the Federation, she didn't get much of a chance to shine. It felt fairly strange to write, especially as I have a bit of a non-Tavian persona for my pseud, so now I think what's Tavia doing in my pseud's story? If I find the time, I might well develop her for Helen's new zine, but that would involve working out her character rather more clearly and differentiating her from me. Tavia

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original characters
by Mac4781＠aol.com 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

For those interested in original characters I thought I'd pass along a list of stories that contain some of my favorite ocs in fanfic. May King by Susan Cutter (http://members.100free.com/users/scutter/) - ADULT - is a novel full of rich settings and engrossing original characters. The Scorpio crew's search for food sources takes them to a "a planet so wonderful the natives call it Eden." The Nothing That Is (Southern Comfort 8.5) and Exit Interview (Southern Comfort 10.5) by Lexa Reiss - ADULT - a pair of stories that deal with Tarrant's pre-series days. His FSA roommate, Jarn, plays a vital role in both stories. The Desperados (Southern Seven 7) by H. S. Levijoki - A PGP told from the pov of a resident of Gauda Prime. It provides a wonderful perspective of our rebels as outlaws. Outside Impression (Gambit 2) by Peggy Hartsook - Another story told from the perspective of an original character. This time we view our rebels through the eyes of a child. It's another unique and delightful perspective. Carol Mc

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Re: [B7L] Re: Deliverance, Gender and Technology
by Natasa Tucev 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Helen wrote: Many people who feel technology without philosphy is >ruining the planet like to embrace goddess-worship as part of their >world view, which suggests even most rebels against society are buying >into the technical/man-- emotional/woman dichotomy of the mainstream >culture. (This ties in with the thread about how even rebelling from the >culture, we a shaped by it). I don't agree. I don't think there's anything sexist, or culturally prejudiced, in seeing Earth as feminine. Ask Ellynne or Fiona and I think they will agree that numerous mythologies throughout the world which haven't had any interaction with each other view the Earth as such. Earth is mother. It gives birth to things. There's no way you can see it as masculine (or at least none that I'm aware of). This is not a matter of ideology. It is an archetype, an ancient human notion, deeply ingrained within our psyche. Earth and water are feminine elements, both for the Chinese and the Celts. Yes, I'm interested in the goddess thing. If nothing else, it provides a very original critical stance for analysing literature. Some of the best writers of today, both male and female, promote the feminine principle - Seamus Heaney, Nobel Prize, Ted Hughes, English Poet Laureate, Coetzee, two Booker prizes, D.M. Thomas, Margaret Atwood. Or, if you want to stay within the SF/F genre, try Mists of Avalon. It is a bit longish and some parts are boring, but it's worth reading for its world-view. On the other hand, I feel that very often feminists are missing the point, fighting for women's right to fill the positions which were previously filled by men, within the structures which still remain essentially governed by the masculine principle. I don't see that world has become a better place because some female monsters have been asigned to the position of Prime Ministers of Foreign Secretaries of influential countries. Psychologically they are the offspring of Athens, who was conceived in her father's head. The real issue should be the equality of principles, masculine and feminine. N. (who admits she is very heated about this)

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Sally Manton 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Tavia wrote: <The whole anti-Mary-Sue feeling has (IMO) done more to stultify B7 fanfic than anything else. I'd rather put up with a whole host of blatant Mary-Sues in the hope that people felt freer to invent new characters and new situations.> But do Mary Sues (the real thing) represent or encourage anything of the sort? Not in my reading experience - quite the opposite. She's even more strictly defined that a badly-written comp tech <g> and - what is much much worse - has an appalling effect on the writing of the characters that I already know and like. In my experience, the average MS story doesn't just shriek "isn't this creation of mine wonderful?" but also "wouldn't Avon/Vila/Tarrant be so much better off with Wonderful Creation who understands and appreciates him properly and who he can confide in and trust than that these stupid insensitive Nearthandal types he has to put up with on the screen?" *That's* the thing I most hate about them - not that they're Wonderful, but the way that said wonderfulness ladled on at the expense of the regulars. (And to be perfectly honest, the OFCs (Original Female Characters) I've seen in other fandoms were often rather off-putting as well - not that I'm claiming that as a general rule, since I haven't read a lot outside B7, but enough to note that the Little-Ms-Aren't-I-So-Much-More-Wonderful-Than-Your-Heroes* type is rather widespread). There is also the Shiny Happy aspect of both the May Sue and the (mentioned by Kathryn) James Bond types (which annoy me every bit as much in B7 fiction, BTW). They're irritating enough in Shinier Happier universes - in this bleak, somewhere between black-and-blacker one, peopled by bad-tempered, pig-headed, quarrelsome, suspicious, self-centred, temperamental types (and that's just the Good Guys), they stick out like a Rainbow Princess Doll in a Svankmayer film. I like original characters within reason (i e , not hogging the pages, that's My Darling's job) and I *don't* think it's the anti-MS feelings that's as responsible for the lack of original characters as you think, just that a lot of us - readers and writers alike - *are* pretty satisfied with the range within the series itself, not just the regulars but some of guests like Anna, Avalon, the Clone, Carnell ... Jarriere ... I'm going to mention the dreaded s-word here :-), not to start an argument but to make a point: Sarah Thompson compiles lists of pairings, and at last count (last year) there were just under Avon/OCF-*or*/OMF on it. There were over 500 A/B stories. That's a lot of versions of just one relationship (and believe me, it's *all* over the emotional shop, the answer to 'how many ways can you write it appears to be *a lot*), and doesn't include the several hundred A-B gen stories Jenny and I went through to make out list. These weren't all written because people were afraid of being labelled MSues (in a lot of the gen, especially, there *were* original characters, they just took a back seat to My Darlings) they were written because the unusual richness and drama of the onscreen characters and their relationship (IMO-only, Neil ... :-) was still interesting to them, no matter how many others had tried it before. And after all, even a bad portrayal of Avon or Vila has the added weight of the reader's own interpretation and understanding of the character; when I'm reading it, I'm bringing in what I know (and think I know :-)) about them. Whereas even a good OC simply can't have that extra layer. So B7 fiction that concentrates on a whole new set of characters within the B7 framework is simply unlikely to interest me (unless absolutely *brilliant* in itself) to the point of buying it. And <deeply offended sniff> *I like* onboard stories (probably that business of wanting to peek into their private lives again). Sally *With, of course, the exception of the Author's Favourite, who is so misunderstood and unappreciated by everyone *except* Wonderful Creation. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Subtext vs Character
by J MacQueen 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

>From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner(a)tesco.net> >What do you mean, *becomes* a penguin? Well, given her tendency to sing "I! I!" or variants in those songs I've heard*, would you prefer Cthulhu cultist? Regards Joanne *Don't look like that - I can't avoid commercial radio all the time... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Fanfic
by Tavia Chalcraft 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Neil wrote: >On the other hand, one of the problems with regular fanfic is the >way it is instantly overcrowded by default. It is hard to give equal >space to all the regulars (for one thing, you probably need a pretty >long story to give each one a chance to shine at some point). Even >harder with just one original character, let alone two or more. This is one of the attractions of pre-stories and PGPs, you can select the characters you want to include and forget the rest. For amateur writers, it's much easier to write interestingly for two or three characters than for six. >(I think I pulled it off with Hunter, which has more originals than regulars. >And I challenge anyone to prove that even one of the ocf's counts as a Mary Sue.) I think male authors are less at risk of being accused of writing OFCs as Mary-Sues. Bloody sex discrimination... Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Re: Fanfic
by Tavia Chalcraft 12 Feb '01

12 Feb '01

Kathryn wrote: >And the more I think about it, the more sexist it seems. Because if a guy >writes a story where there's a guy who's brave, handsome, knows >20 languages, is a crack shot, rescues Our Heros, has one of the >femmes fall in love with him, will he be accused of writing a >Marky Sam (the male version of Mary Sue)? No, he'll just be >accused of borrowing the character of James Bond... Yeah, and an OFC written by a woman has to be one or more of old, ugly and stupid before no-one accuses her of M-S'ing. Sigh. Tavia

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Re: politics
by Helen Krummenacker 12 Feb '01

12 Feb '01

FWIW, I don't think most Republicans are bigots, and I don't like the monetary corruption that goes on in any part of the government. Disliking Bush doesn't necessitate being a CLintonite. In fact, given a chance, I would have voted for McCain. I'm Green Party. Big corporations pretty much buy the government's cooperation with their wants and needs. But the Democrats at least sometimes try to pay attention to the needs of individuals as well. Most modern Republicans seem willing to go back to the late 1800s, when Big Money owned entire towns and food poisoning was a constant threat. I'm also starting a small business. I wondered if this would change my political views when I realized that I'm still labour. I'm just cutting out the middle man, which is management. I think I'll be as resistant to plutocracy in 5 years time. OB7: Avon would be pro-plutocracy. Vila has very individualized ideas about money that would stay in effect regardless of the political system. Jenna, aas a smuggler, probably prefers free enterprise in a small-business oriented system. The others?

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Re: Fanfic
by Helen Krummenacker 12 Feb '01

12 Feb '01

Neil, you had me laughing with the remarks about how to keep the 'tone' of the series, but are there really so few people who enjoy the milieu of Blake's 7. Keeping in mind that not being able to use more than one of the main cast, there could easily be stories about Jarriere, Carnell, or Kasabi? Well, I was talking with Tavia and I am willing to edit a zine on this principle. I'm sure if people are willing to write for it, someone will be willing to read it. Who's game?

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Blakes7 February 2001