Lisa wrote:
Shane Little wrote:
You did say you found the politics boring, and Neil is a very political writer.
I also said I don't care for PWPs, most of which I *also* find boring, as
I
do quite a bit of other fiction. And that when I'm reading for entertainment, I don't tend to read stuff that bores me. Why is this some sort of issue?
It's not an issue as far as I'm concerned. You brought it up, and up until now you've been talking about the reading of slash in general, not your personal entertainment.
You are not in a position to judge the quality of anyone else's wank.
I could make a very bad joke at this point, if I wanted to.
And
why *should* they have any further merit? Is this some sort of Puritan stricture that anything fun is bad unless you're also Learning Something Worthwhile?
No, I'm just saying if you are going to have a wank, make it a good one. And if you can wank and "Learn Something Worthwhile" at the same time, then all the better. It's not as boring as it might sound-- some of the best fiction is both good entertainment _and_ full of literary merit. But, again, as I keep emphasising, this is only my opinion.
I tend to regard PWPs as trivia and not pay much attention to them,
unless they have something > >to recommend them other than descriptions of sex.
So we're agreed then, PWPs are trivial.
The point is that something that's really not representative of B7
fanfic
as a whole seems to be becoming the dominant sort, and that's not
allowing
much of a voice to the other sorts.
I haven't seen any stats, so I don't know how slash compares with gen in terms of B7 fanfic output these days. However, I know there are some good gen writers out there who are still producing, and no one's trying to
stop
them and tell them to go write slash instead. If people are interested in writing gen, they will. If they're not, they won't.
Fair enough, and as long as slash doesn't get blurred with the series I'm happy.
Politics is human relations writ large.
Whereas what I'm interested in reading about is more human relations writ small (i.e., between specific individuals.)
You can write it anyway you like, we are still talking about human relations. Where do you think the phrase "sexual politics" comes from?
If the relationships in slash aren't realistic, then it seems to me it's
a
bad place to go looking for fiction about relationships.
If they're not realistic (which is sometimes but not always the case), it might be a bad place to go looking for fiction about *realistic* relationships. Which I'm not, so the point is pretty much irrelevant.
So basically then, you read slash for _unrealistic_ relationships?
Stark realism is fairly low on my fiction-reading list in any case,
But we weren't talking about stark realism, just about the story having a basis in some kind of canonical "reality" as a whole. Or in the reality of gay relationships-- correct me if I'm wrong but you're not talking about the "realistic" genre of slash here are you?
and most of the characters about whom I'm reading fanfic weren't too realistic to
start
with.
So you don't read fanfic about B7 characters. Why then are we having this conversation?
Now, the relationships do have to be *believable*, in the context of the characters *as I see them* (please note pronoun and emphasis), for me to enjoy the story, but that's not quite the same thing as "realistic".
I think I'm getting a little confused here. Let me get this straight, you like to read fanfic about unrealistic characters in unrealistic situations, but they have to be believable in the context of the characters as you see them. I feel dizzy. Does this mean then you only read fanfic that you write?
No, but they're not gay.
Your personal interpretation of the characters has been duly noted.
No, sorry, but that is not just my personal interpretation, and if you go back and read the Betty/Fiona debate a few weeks back you'll see what I mean. I've come to like and respect a lot of pro-slash people-- but trying to read it back onto the series is the fastest way to stop me taking what you have to say seriously.
A lot of slash I've seen has nothing to do with gay lifestyles at all, just with titillation.
Again, why is this a problem? It's not *meant* to be making statements about "gay lifestyles", so why would you expect it to? It's not
pretending
to be anything it isn't. And yes, some of it is indeed concerned
primarily
with titillation. Some of it isn't. So what?
As long as you recognise that fact, there isn't a problem, but if you read my answer above you will see why it becomes a problem. By reading it back onto the series you are giving it a validity it does not deserve, or warrant. Also, how many people out there thought, until recently, that slash (and let's just for the moment concern ourselves with poorly researched, speed written shite) was a fair representation of what a gay relationship is all about (some don't, I know, and have spoken out, but are they everyone)? It's an interesting fact that until recently, a serious debate on the merits of slash was thought to be impossible. And it has not gone unnoticed that certain people on this lyst have been doing everything they can to knock this debate over into a personal slanging match.
Yes, true, but we're not talking about the deeper stuff.
Well, maybe *you* aren't.
Well are you? I haven't seem much evidence of it.
I would say that you are making some very broad general judgements based
on
very limited knowledge and a narrow focus.
No, I'm just answering your e-mails. You're being pro-active, I'm being re-active, it's really up to you to broaden the focus. You started this correspondence with me, after all.
That does tend to lead to fallacious conclusions, or at least a biased outlook.
I think you're being hard on yourself, but then I suppose you should know, so who am I to argue?
As I said, I've grown to respect many of the slash writers and readers
on
this lyst-- but I have to admit that slash fandom's extreme wing strikes me as nastier than gen fandom's extreme wing.
A lot of slash fans have faced some *very* nasty, vicious, and repressive behaviour from anti-slashers with a thought-police agenda, in many
fandoms
and over a long period,
Possibly so, but I had a conversation with someone the other day who was convinced that Bodie and Doyle from the Professionals were in fact gay characters, and that both actors were also closet homosexuals. If some fans believe that their favourite programme is being taken over and distorted into something that it was never intended to be, and has nothing at all to do with why they became fans, then I'm not really very surprised that they get a bit upset about it. Perhaps we should all be thankful that, with a few minor exceptions, B7 fandom is mature enough to have a reasoned debate on the subject.
Again, though, it's interesting that in this latest discussion, the nastiest--and most censoring--attacks have come from the _pro_ slash side. I mean, it hasn't been an anti-slasher who's been saying "we can't discuss this" and "take it onto Freedom City," it's two of the pro-slashers.
and some have developed a siege mentality and a tendency to lash back in anger.
And some have developed a mentality that I would describe as highly aggressive and secretive.
Personally, I regard that as unfortunate and counter-productive, but probably inevitable.
It's counter-productive, yes, inevitable, not necessarily.
Most anti-slash people don't read it, but we are aware of it and affected
by it.
Being aware of and affected by other people's opinions and activities is
a
fact of life when living on the same planet with a whole lot of other people.
Absolutely.
Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.
Then I will reiterate. It's no good Leah or Annie saying things like "if you don't like slash then ignore it", because you _can't _ ignore it. It's everywhere. Now, for whatever reason, slash has become a part of B7 fandom and it isn't going away. However, that doesn't mean that people who aren't in favour of slash are not allowed to express their opinions. It isn't just some of the anti-slashers who have a thought-police agenda either, some of the pro-slashers do as well. In fact I would even go so far as saying that these people are actually _anti-thought_. They don't what you to thinking about it, and they will do what they can to stop it being debated. Anyone out there care to speculate why?
I don't think you're suggesting that people with different opinions should go
crawl
into holes and pretend they don't exist, so you don't have to deal with
being aware of them,
No I'm not. That's Leah and Annie you're talking about there, that's what they appear to want.
but I can't make out what you *are* suggesting.
I am not suggesting anything, I am telling you that if you want to write, or read slash, then go ahead. Read and write as much slash as you like, but don't then try and tell me that Avon, Vila, Tarrant and all, were written and played as gay. They weren't. The writers say they weren't, the actors say they weren't, the grammar of the show says they weren't, the way the drama was constructed precludes any sexual relationship developing between the regular characters of _any_ persuasion. B7 was a family show that went out, for the most part, on Monday nights at around 7 o'clock. The programme was an action adventure series with, for the most part, good, strong memorable characters. It also possessed, thanks mainly to Chris Boucher, some very sophisticated concepts and story-lines. The one thing B7 wasn't however, was a gay soap opera. If it was, then I wouldn't be writing to you on this subject now, because if any of the regular characters had been written as gay, then everyone would know it.
And do you know why? Because Chris Boucher would have made sure that it was known. If Avon had been written as gay then it would have been shown to us, the evidence would be there on the screen, with no equivocation. But it isn't. And no matter how many scenes people take and twist out of context, they are never going to change that fact.
And while I'm at it, here's another fact that isn't going to be changed. The fact that drawing- for- distribution, explicit adult artwork of Actor X and Actor Y, in full knowledge that Actor X and Actor Y are distressed by such representations, is _wrong_. And I'd be extremely suspicious of anyone who does this, because IMO it shows a contempt for the actors who brought this great show and these great characters alive for us. It's a poor reward for the actors who, after all these years, are still willing to make themselves available to sign autographs for fans, pose for pictures and attend fan run events. It's a great big slap in the face, and unfortunately the "fans" responsible are either too blinkered or too selfish to stop and think what they are doing.
And before anyone squawks, "It's only the character I am drawing, not the actor," I'll give you my answer now, "Grow up."
And for anyone who says, "Other fandoms do it" I say, "If other fandoms killed themselves in a mass suicide pact, would you advocate that we also did the same?" B7 fans, I'll reiterate, seem to me for the most part to be more intelligent and mature than those in many other fandoms. Let's not change this.
And finally, for those about to say, "I couldn't care less about the actors. I don't go to conventions to see guests, I don't collect autographs, I don't want any pictures," then I say to you, "You're not the only B7 fan in the world, so don't be selfish; try and show a bit of consideration for other people and they'll show consideration to you."
And that's the Shane Little Slash Manifesto, in brief and summarised.
Personally, I'd be glad to settle for peaceful co-existence.
If that's true then don't reply to this e-mail.
Shane
"You're pathetic. I should leave you to rot. You want to live like slaves. Live or die at the whim of a madman, then fine. But you're not taking me down with you." --Blake
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Shane Little wrote:
It's not as boring as it might sound-- some of the best fiction is both good entertainment _and_ full of literary merit.
Well, of course it is. But that doesn't mean we have to limit ourselves only to that. My favorites in fiction run the gamut from literary classics to pulp (I'm a Doc Savage fan from way back); I make no apologies for reading some stuff of lesser literary merit, simply because I happen to enjoy it. I spend a great deal of time in intellectually challenging activities -- there is nothing wrong with some pure mind candy for relaxation purposes. My stack of current reading includes a book on history, one each on physics, cognitive science, and software, an SF short story anthology, and a Ngaio Marsh mystery. Somehow I doubt my brain is going to rot because I stoop to the occasional formulaic mystery, pulp novel, or frivolous bit of fanfic (slash or otherwise).
Where do you think the phrase "sexual politics" comes from?
Dunno, but I tend to run when I hear it.
So basically then, you read slash for _unrealistic_ relationships?
Well, you're starting to get the idea, I think. Not just slash, however; that applies to most of the fiction I read for pleasure. It's not that I'm looking for "unrealistic"; I'm looking for *what I like* -- which often happens not to be especially realistic. (Not everything unrealistic is what I like, but much of what I like is unrealistic -- does that make sense, or is it getting murkier?)
correct me if I'm wrong but you're not talking about the "realistic" genre of slash here are you?
Er, I don't know -- I'm not sure what you're calling the "realistic" genre of slash.
I think I'm getting a little confused here. Let me get this straight, you like to read fanfic about unrealistic characters in unrealistic situations, but they have to be believable in the context of the characters as you see them.
That's correct. I want internal coherence -- the characters in the fanfic need to match fairly closely the characters I perceive in the original -- but I don't regard those characters themselves as being particularly realistic.
Does this mean then you only read fanfic that you write?
No; I don't write fiction. However, there are a sufficient number of fans who write, and who see the characters similarly to the way I do, that I can find fanfic I enjoy reading. There's also a lot of it that I *don't* enjoy reading, because the characterizations are so far from the way I see them -- but those characterizations presumably match some other people's perceptions quite well.
I've come to like and respect a lot of pro-slash people-- but trying to read it back onto the series is the fastest way to stop me taking what you have to say seriously.
I don't understand what you mean by "read it back onto the series". I got my perceptions of the characters from *watching* the series; I'm not certain how else you would expect me to get them.
I am not suggesting anything, I am telling you that if you want to write, or read slash, then go ahead.
Thank you for your permission.
Read and write as much slash as you like, but don't then try and tell me that Avon, Vila, Tarrant and all, were written and played as gay.
I'm hardly likely to, since I *don't* think any such thing, nor have I ever stated or implied that I do.
If that's true then don't reply to this e-mail.
Well, darn; I wish you'd said that back up at the start, and not then asked a number of questions which I thought it would be impolite not to answer, since I assumed you were asking for clarification or information... I'm not wasting the typing, so into the modem it goes. Feel free to delete, if you prefer.
- Lisa
-- Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://framecaplib.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroicafans.org/
-
Lisa Williams -
Shane Little