--- Betty Ragan bragan@aoc.nrao.edu wrote:

It seems to me, though, that a major part of

the problem here is that it would never have occured to me that someone would have regarded a post about "Suffering Beautifully" as *being* an adult topic. Annoyingly character junkie-istic, yes. Morally offensive, no. "Beautiful Suffering" does not equal "sadomasochism"!

OK, I promised myself I'd stop responding, but I feel I should clarify my position, which I'll try to do as neutrally as I can, and apologies in advance if I upset you by this, Betty.

My understanding of the concept of "Suffering Beautifully" was that a character is physically or emotionally hurt, and that this pain makes him more attractive in the eyes of the reader and/or writer. Which seems to me have a sadistic twist to it, even if there's not actual S/M sex.

Wendy

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On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 06:05:49PM -0700, Betty Ragan wrote:

Responding to Wendy, Annie wrote:

...

< But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs. >>

I thought "that sort of thing" was okay here on lysator. I know it *used* to be okay, but I have been gone from actively participating in the list for a few years. Is it now a rule of the list that slash and adult topics aren't allowed here? Just checking!

I don't know if there's a general "rule" (I'll let Calle address that one), but IMO slash and adult topics are better kept on the Other List. It seems to me, though, that a major part of the problem here is that it would never have occured to me that someone would have regarded a post about "Suffering Beautifully" as *being* an adult topic. Annoyingly character junkie-istic, yes. Morally offensive, no. "Beautiful Suffering" does not equal "sadomasochism"!

Exactly!

I goggled at Wendy's assertion that "Suffering Beautifully" had something to do with slash/adult... *my* understanding of the Other List is that it's a place to happily discuss *sex*, wheras, while such things aren't verboten here, they are.., discouraged.

Hurt/Comfort hasn't got anything to do with sex. Not so far as I knew. Mind you, considering that I don't read adult, I don't read slash, and I don't usually read Hurt/Comfort, I could be completely wrong about this! Perhaps it's the case that a lot of slash is also H/C, but so far as I know H/C isn't exclusively a slash domain.

H/C does not appeal to me at all. (Shock, horror, I'm agreeing with Wendy about something!) I can understand why Wendy is irritated by it, but lashing out at the way Sally flippantly (and we all know she's tongue-in-cheek about it) talks about My Darlings and Beautiful Suffering, was the wrong way to go about it.

Wendy, gratuitously offending people is *never* going to make them think, or change their minds. There *are* ways of protesting against things without casting aspersions on people's intelligence or morals! (*) No, I'm not saying that one should be dishonest rather than offend people -- no way! But there's a thing called *tact*, which an art much to be cultivated. It is much more efficient to extract foot from mouth *first*, than having to apologise afterwards.

Thing is, as much as I don't like H/C (**) (or at least the extreme sadistic versions thereof -- such as BUARA which Neil mentioned) there is an element of truth in the "Beautiful Suffering" of Avon -- because it's there in canon. Blame it on Paul Darrow's acting, if you will, but on the occasions when Avon has suffered in the show (for example, Rumours of Death, and his broken arm/wrist in Moloch) he does it so *well* -- angsty, understated, expressive yet stoic... that I've always assumed that folks were referring to *canon* when they talk about Avon's Beautiful Suffering.

And I don't think liking canon makes me a sadist. Mind you, what I'm more fond of is angst (emotional suffering) rather than physical suffering, which ranges from pointlessly cruel to simply pointless. By all means, make Avon break a leg and suffer, but if you're going to BUARA then warn me so I can get far, far away.

(*) Whether or not *I* am successful at that remains to be seen... I can but try.

(**) Yes, I'm the one who started the H/C thread recently... but then I asked the question I did, not as an afficionado of H/C, but as a curious outsider...

Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- HISTORY LESSON

History repeats itself. Has to. Nobody listens. -Steve Turner