Well, if this hasn't broken February's record, I don't know what will. :)
There were a ton of thoughtful posts on this subject this morning and some very good points were made. Forgive me, if I feel a need to add my two cent's worth. I'm sure many of you are very worn of this topic.
Sally wrote:
I think this has gone past a joke. Quite simply, being called worthless crap hurts.
Sally, if Wendy had indeed called you "worthless crap" I would have been the first to come to your defense. But I honestly never saw Wendy attacking the poster. Now admittedly I may not remembering everything, and I'd appreciate it if such attacks exist if someone would repost the *quotes*. Twisting her words into personal attacks don't count.
I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again because I think it is important. The Internet makes it very easy for us to do quoting. Quoting avoids misunderstandings. So rather than twist what people say, use the quotes.
Carol and Shane's approval thereof have struck a very painful nerve.
I would speak up again. Wendy has a right to post to this list. I didn't say I agreed with everything she said. I didn't say I agreed with her posting style. What I did see was a large group of people attacking one person. Yet Wendy stood up for position without taking any of those attacks personally. I admire that. I don't know that I could have withstood such a barrage. I felt it was time that someone spoke up on her behalf. I tend to do that when I see an underdog.
I've been assuming for two years that people took my 'Fearless Leader',
'My
Darling', etc, the burbles sending up the sillier aspects of the show and splattering capitals and generally having a bit of fun with the characters and the show as just that - fun, and had the sensitivity to discriminate between that and my serious comments.
You use those terms even when you are participating in serious discussions. So if someone questions their appropriateness to the series in a serious manner, that may be why.
Any extreme posting style--as in Wendy's bluntness or your syrupy burbles--is going to be like fingernails across a blackboard to some readers. That happens. It's human nature. It doesn't mean anyone should have to change their posting style, but they should be aware of the fact that it's going to irritate a portion of the readers. If anyone on this list wants universal approval, they're on the wrong list.
Wendy wrote:
But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs.
But you are not forced to read those posts. Just as you told Marian and Sally in regard to Tarrant stories "to stop reading bad fanfic," you can delete posts that are upsetting. None of us are going to like every topic on the B7 lists.
As for what belongs on the "other list," for the sake of peace those of us who enjoy certain topics do try to keep them on the other list. I don't see people initiating threads of an adult nature on this list. Sometimes lyst threads do drift in that direction, and often those threads are then quietly transferred to the other list. But to expect that posts to the lyst are never going to touch on slash is unreasonable. And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual. Which is what Betty said, and you answered:
Wendy wrote:
But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs.
But you are not forced to read those posts. Just as you told Marian and Sally in regard to Tarrant stories "to stop reading bad fanfic," you can delete posts that are upsetting.
As for what belongs on the "other list," for the sake of peace those of us who enjoy certain topics do try to keep them on the other list. I don't see people initiating threads of an adult nature on this list. Sometimes lyst threads do drift in that direction, and often those threads are then quietly transferred to the other list. But to expect that posts to the lyst are never going to touch on slash is unreasonable. And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual. Which is what Betty said, and you answered:
My understanding of the concept of "Suffering Beautifully" was that a character is physically or emotionally hurt, and that this pain makes him more attractive in the eyes of the reader and/or writer. Which seems to me have a sadistic twist to it, even if there's not actual S/M sex.
But should sadism be a forbidden topic on the list? And if it is, what other topics that might offend a fan here or a fan there should be forbidden? That's a serious question. I don't like to offend list members, but too much censorship might water the list down to mush.
Back to h/c, and unfortunately I only have a few more minutes so I can't get into this as thoroughly as the subject deserves.
It's not the pain makes h/c stories interesting. It's as Betty said, the character's reaction to the pain that makes it interesting. But I will confess that some characters suffer beautifully. I've only seen a couple of Voyager eps, one of which was "The Chute," and I thought Paris and Kim looked a lot cuter scruffy and beaten than they did cleaned up. It's not that I like suffering, and I don't think I'm a sadist. They just looked cuter, the hair hanging in their faces, etc. It was a visual thing.
I will admit that I've also enjoyed some S/M B7 stories. And was shocked to find I enjoyed them. But I don't enjoy S/M in real life. No more than I enjoy war and killing in real life.
Sorry, I really am out of time. So I'm sending this off unproofed and hoping I made sense and didn't offend anyone.
Carol Mc
Carol Mc wrote:
Sally, if Wendy had indeed called you "worthless crap" I would have been the first to come to your defense. But I honestly never saw Wendy attacking the poster. Now admittedly I may not remembering everything, and I'd appreciate it if such attacks exist if someone would repost the *quotes*. Twisting her words into personal attacks don't count.
Well, I *really* don't want to turn this into a "but she said, but you said!" kind of thing, and would much prefer to just bury the whole issue, but in the interest of pointing out the kind of effect that ill-chosen words can have on people, I'll say this... The final straw, for me, the thing that turned my perception of Wendy's posts from simply "annoying rants best ignored" to "deliberate and hateful personal attack on somebody I like" was this phrase: "try not to make the rest of us sick." This was aimed directly at Sally, who had made an innocent comment to a newcomer to the Lyst that she would doubtless see lots of "Avon-wallow" posts if that was the sort of thing she was interested in. And it struck me not *only* as a personal attack (implying "Sally makes me sick!") but as an attempt to silence those who want to discuss topics Wendy isn't interested in. Everything she said after that was interpreted in light of that perception, something that was, frankly, very easy to do because of the generally hostile tone. (And she *did* use the word "crap," albeit not paired with the word "worthless" and not *directly* aimed at anyone, IIRC.)
Again, I don't want to hash all this out at length. I just want to put in a plea for everyone to *please* try and remember that there's an actual human being on the other end of the electron stream.
And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual.
I will add to this that this is why, rather than simply yelling about things that bother you, it's a good idea to explain *why* they bother you. I mean, now that we *understand* Wendy's problem with certain topics, we can rationally discuss whether she's got a valid point, whether such topics *do* belong here or not, etc.
I will admit that I've also enjoyed some S/M B7 stories. And was shocked to find I enjoyed them. But I don't enjoy S/M in real life. No more than I enjoy war and killing in real life.
I think this is also an important point. I enjoy reading about things -- and sometimes writing about them -- that I would never, ever, *ever* want to experience in real life. In real life, I can't handle seeing someone else in pain. I sometimes get actual, physical, sympathy pains when other people hurt, and it's not pleasant. I won't swat flies or step on cockroaches. And I can't stand the sight of blood. But, if I happen to enjoy reading a story in which Avon gets tortured or something, that makes me a sadist? That seems kind of weird to me. IMO the difference between liking something in fiction or fantasy and liking it (or even condoning it) in reality is a large and important one.
Betty Ragan wrote:
I think this is also an important point. I enjoy reading about things -- and sometimes writing about them -- that I would never, ever, *ever* want to experience in real life.
Sure. Literature is how we 'try on' different experiences, one way we process our emotions. I don't think people keep watching B7 year after year because they'd actually _want_ to see a bunch of friends and comrades fight side by side for years and then massacre each other in a 'tragedy of errors'. If liking something in fiction is the same thing as liking it IRL, I'm not sure there's any excuse at all for being a B7 fan.
Mistral
--- Mac4781@aol.com wrote:
First of all, thanks for sticking up for me. I've been having a difficult time at home recently. My suffering hasn't been beautiful :), and I guess it's made me prickly.
But you are not forced to read those posts. Just as
you told Marian and
Sally in regard to Tarrant stories "to stop reading
bad fanfic," you can
delete posts that are upsetting.
Well I do, but sometimes it's hard. You're following a discussion on, say, Travis 1/Travis 2, and suddenly someone pops up under the same header to talk about how much of each of them you can see through their costumes? By the time I've read enough to know I should delete it, it's too late. It seems like any subject can be given a sexual or innuendo twist, which IMHO often means turning an intelligent subject into a dirty joke.
It also seems like IMHO some people have become so wrapped up in fanfic (not just the slash stuff either) that they read it back into particular episodes too. And when someone suggests that the episode might not have been written with that intention, they appear to become furious.
But should sadism be a forbidden topic on the list?
And if it is, what other
topics that might offend a fan here or a fan there
should be forbidden?
That's a serious question. I don't like to offend
list members, but too much
censorship might water the list down to mush.
I'm not talking about censorship. I don't mind discussing this subject :). But there are ways and ways of discussing this. Just now, I got a post from Judith Proctor advertising a zine and saying that it has adult homosexual content. I don't mind that, and I'd be surprised if anyone here did. But she didn't come on talking about what happens to who in the stories. So as I said, this gives people who are interested the idea but doesn't put off people who aren't. And she's not cutesy about it either.
Wendy
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From: Penberriss Wendy S. penberriss@yahoo.com
By the time I've read enough to know I should delete it, it's too late. It seems like any subject can be given a sexual or innuendo twist, which IMHO often means turning an intelligent subject into a dirty joke.
And what, pray, is wrong with dirty jokes?
And too late for what? Are you actually being offended by the innuendo itself? If so, say so. Your position seems to be - not untypically for you, it now seems - rather unclear.
As for trivialisation of serious subjects (to call them 'intelligent' smacks of elitism to me), I hope I've clarified myself on this one. There are serious threads and there are silly threads, and it would be nice of the funster bunch to show a bit of respect and let us earnest types have a serious discussion once in a while. It's only polite.
It also seems like IMHO some people have become so wrapped up in fanfic (not just the slash stuff either) that they read it back into particular episodes too. And when someone suggests that the episode might not have been written with that intention, they appear to become furious.
'Furious' might be overstating the case a little, but this is not an unfair point. The dividing line between canon and fanon can become blurred in places, and people should take the trouble to discriminate between the two. In my experience, most do, and most treatment of fanon as canon arises in conversations between fans who know they have a shared fanonical perspective. That can, however, get awkward on a forum like this because that conversation is audible to everyone else, who might well not share that perspective and hence become variously confused, irritated or enraged.
There's probably a thesis in all this, if anyone's desperate enough.
Neil
At 08:42 AM 2/21/01 +0000, Neil Faulkner wrote:
As for trivialisation of serious subjects (to call them 'intelligent' smacks of elitism to me), I hope I've clarified myself on this one.
Not clear enough for a funster like myself, I'm afraid. Can you reiterate, using smaller words and shorter sentences?
There are serious threads and there are silly threads, and it would be nice of the funster bunch to show a bit of respect and let us earnest types have a serious discussion once in a while. It's only polite.
Let he who is without frivolous posts (which data are available via the searchable web archive) cast the first flame.
(Can't think of *anything* ObB7, but I just went and read the Lyst FAQ and it says "One or two or a small handful of off-topic posts I won't complain about" so I'm cool, bless the letter of the law) -- "Fighting for the Federation, Hand in hand we'll conquer space..."
From: Penny Dreadful pennydreadful@powersurfr.com
There are serious threads and there are silly threads, and it would be nice of the funster bunch to show a bit of respect and let us earnest types have a serious discussion once in a while. It's only polite.
Let he who is without frivolous posts (which data are available via the searchable web archive) cast the first flame.
Oh, I can be frivolous, I don't deny it. I can even be frivolous and deadly serious at the same time (as indeed can you, 'Dave'). But there's a difference between a frivolous footnote to a serious conversation and a serious attempt to turn a serious conversation into a frivolous one.
So you don't like to feel you're being gagged? Fair enough. Neither do I.
Neil
At 08:57 PM 2/21/01 +0000, Neil Faulkner wrote:
But there's a difference between a frivolous footnote to a serious conversation and a serious attempt to turn a serious conversation into a frivolous one.
Which sort of attempt I have never made, from my point of view. I don't believe I have anything to gain by going to the effort of stifling a conversation I can easily ignore. But I can't prove that, so I might as well be proud of my perceived Davehood. I'm not planning to be guilted or ridiculed into not posting every time I think that somebody else might think that my contribution might not be worthy, nor am I going to change the title of a thread every time I add something to it because I think someone else might think it's not part of the thread. By that logic everyone ought to change the title of the thread every single time they post. So, if that bothers you, killfile me, please. What you'll lose in quasi-frontal-lobe-impaired humour you'll more than make up for in ease of conversational flow.
So you don't like to feel you're being gagged?
I don't feel I'm being gagged. I'm sure numerous Lystians are *trying* to Wish Me Into The Cornfield (or, ah, trying to telekinetically remove my key <--ObB7!), but so far it hasn't
----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net
As for trivialisation of serious subjects (to call them 'intelligent'
smacks
of elitism to me), I hope I've clarified myself on this one. There are serious threads and there are silly threads, and it would be nice of the funster bunch to show a bit of respect and let us earnest types have a serious discussion once in a while. It's only polite.
In another part of the forest, Caveatemptor1@aol.com said:
Oh, what a relief!! I was beginning to worry I was going to have to give
up
my AVON LUST and actually have to start thinking.
Bless you, Penny, for showing me the way back to what's really important.
Avon's smile, Avon's eyes,
Avon in tight red leather (oh, dear...is that a phallic symbol?)
<FIONA smacks head with hands, flings hands to heavens and walks away muttering...> :)
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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