Annie wrote:

The concept of empathy really seems to be eluding some members of this

list.

And I'm speaking to the chief culprit. Really shown a lot of empathy, you have.

I don't know how I can make it any plainer than I already have. A number of people certainly didn't like it when I freely expressed *my* opinion of *their* religion... even though it is my true opinion and I meant no

personal

attack on them on at all.

No, you didn't. You didn't even tell us what your opinion of "their religion" (I got the impression that there were more than just Christians on the religious thread) is, you just said, and I quote:

<I don't think you (or many other Christians on this list) would like it if I aired my personal views on Christianity and how adding any hint of it to B7 characters would be "twisting" them or committing "character assassination" against them. <snip> Trying to apply Christian morality to the show IS twisting it. Why don't you try putting the shoe on the other foot and think about how YOU might feel. If you can.>

You also say:

<I take a great deal of exception to being told that reading about two people making love is just as morally reprehensible as massacre. There's something very sick about a religion or a person who would believe that.>

Now, implying that Kathryn is insensitive, or sick, definitely falls under the category of personal attack-- especially that second post, since it singles out Kathryn and doesn't just criticise her faith, not to mention twisting about what she actually said regarding massacres and sex. If you meant no personal attack, why put it in those terms?

Hey, I felt it "needed to be said" because it's the way I feel.

The two aren't always one and the same.

If it's okay for others to attack *my* beliefs and traditions and lifestyle openly on the list, why do they feel that they are immune from hearing my thoughts on *their* beliefs and traditions and lifestyle in return?

You're acting like you think nobody else came in on that thread, like it was just poor li'l Annie up against the evil Christians (although maybe you've killfiled the others on the thread, I don't know). Plenty of other people have responded to Kathryn and Elynne, providing countervailing voices from other beliefs and traditions; the debate and discussion has been interesting and revealing. And above all, civilised. You and Leah are the only people who have been talking in terms of attacks and bigotry, you know.

You can say anything you darn well please and I'll stand up for your "right" to do so.

Oh, right. Leaving aside the vast number of people you've personally attacked, even killfiled, you've _really_ stood up for people's rights of free speech by telling them:

<there can't be open discussion among fans about slash>

Because there _can_ be, Annie. And there is. You're behind the times. And it's very interesting that you also say that there can only be discussion about slash on Freedom City. Because Freedom City is a list for _people who like slash_. So people who don't like slash-- and who therefore are the ones who have a different take on slash-- don't have a voice on slash, in your ideal universe. In your ideal world, people like me, Kathryn, Neil, Fiona, and Elynne, shouldn't be allowed to express our opinions unless we go on a slash-focused list, which I don't think any of us would do.

We none of us are going to go over to Freedom City and tell you that you're sick. But if you want to discuss slash on Lysator (and you haven't exactly been discouraging the discussion), you have to discuss it on the terms of this list.

But please don't act all put out and surprised when you receive an answer IN KIND.

Oh, nobody was _surprised_ at the tone of your post. But it wasn't an answer in kind.

I believe in treating people the way they have asked me to treat them.

When did Kathryn ask to be attacked? The post she was responding to wasn't even one of yours, it was in response to a question _Neil_ asked.

And I don't believe in letting people insult my way of life with impunity. I don't have to justify my existence to anyone and I don't have to defend my way of life.

But you're not exactly letting other people defend or justify theirs, are you? In fact, you're stifling debate.

But if people here are going to freely attack an entire group of people

Of which I am also a member, and I know I'm not the only one here. You certainly don't speak for all gays, Annie, any more than you speak for all fans.

I'll be darned if I'm just going to sit back and let them do it without saying anything.

Even if all you have to say is an insult?

Some folks said that *they* weren't offended by Kathryn's original post because she said it all so "politely". So, I went back and reread the post (reproduced below) just to see if I was completely out of line. Nope. I'm just as offended at 2nd and 3rd readings. I don't think it's polite at all

to

blithely inform a large list of Blakes 7 fans that adultery (of Avon and Anna) isn't half so bothersome as gay sex because, of course, gay sex is soooo much more sinful.

Showing again that you actually _haven't_ read the post. To quote Kathryn:

To refine: I find slash stories more upsetting than hetsmut because of the moral issue, even though I don't like reading either one; for me, het sex out of wedlock is, while not good, not half as sinful as gay sex. (Particularly if the het sex is monogamous; at least they're being faithful...) So it upsets me to see characters I admire suddenly having gay sex. That's where my compass is set, and if that upsets anyone, then go ahead and call me insulting names if it makes you feel better.

Note that Kathryn says _for her_, adultery is not as sinful as gay sex. She says that she understands other people may be upset by this, and that other people may not see it the same way. A perfectly understandable response, when asked _by Neil_ just what her religious objections to slash are. She is not blithely stating a fact, she is venturing an opinion with the proviso that she knows other people do not see it that way. I don't particularly like one or two of the things she said either, but since she's shown herself willing to respect my beliefs by her provisos I'll respect hers.

Time and time again I've talked in my posts about things which must surely upset her deeply, since they assume that gay sex is a normal, positive and happy thing. She has never come back and called me sick for that. So in my turn, I'll support her right to not be bullied for her beliefs, however alien to mine they may be.

Shane

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