----- Original Message ----- From: Tavia Chalcraft tavia@btinternet.com To: 'Lysator mailing list' blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [B7L] Sally-speak
Fiona:
I once asked him if he saw any of the gay subtext in B7 which many fans say they do. He replied that he detected no sexual tension *at all* between Blake and Avon. Now,before you say "but the actors weren't gay, so of course he didn't," this doesn't always read.
This could of course be bad acting. I detected no sexual (or any other) tension between Anna and Avon, but put that down to poor acting or at
least
uninspired casting.
It could :). But the thing is, it's conveyed in other ways. Avon is seen in bed with Anna. They talk about love. They embrace when they meet. He cradles her in his arms. She says "When I was with you I was always Anna." I think you'd have to work hard to deny that there's an implied hetero/sexual relationship between Avon and Anna. My gay friend is, I think, just as attuned to behavioural cues as to "Chemistry," and still didn't see any way of reading B and A's relationship as sexual, even taking the "bad acting" argument into account (which I don't see. PD and GT are at *least* as good actors as Scott Fredericks, who as I've said successfully pulled off playing a character as bisexual despite being straight).
Possible counterargument: "But you can't just come out and show two men in bed in 1970s TV!" Yes, but there are other ways of doing it which make it clear that the relationship between the men is sexual. Egrorian calls Pinter his "golden-haired stripling" and tells about how they ran away together. Krantor langorously offers Toise an--aphrodisiac--pateki-cake. In another series, Willow and Tara hold hands, are seen moving into a flat together (while Tara complains that she thinks Willow's friends are uncomfortable about them living together) and the sexual subtext of the scenes where they cast spells are pretty obvious-- you don't have to have lesbian-dar of any sort to realise what is being implied.
My point is, if the writers/actors/whoever had intended the characters to read as gay/involved, they could have done so. But they didn't.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Fiona said:
Fiona:
I once asked him [a gay friend] if he saw any of the gay subtext in B7 which many fans say they do. He replied that he detected no sexual tension *at all* between Blake and Avon.
OK, one man's opinion. He doesn't issue the imprimaturs for the Homintern though.
Possible counterargument: "But you can't just come out and show two men in bed in 1970s TV!" Yes, but there are other ways of doing it which make it clear that the relationship between the men is sexual. Egrorian calls
Pinter
his "golden-haired stripling" and tells about how they ran away together. Krantor langorously offers Toise an--aphrodisiac--pateki-cake.
Making fun of silly old queens is far more acceptable in popular entertainment than 1. mixing genres and including significant romantic/sexual elements in an action adventure much less 2. gay action-adventure heroes. It's not a perfect analogy, but as Robert Townsend's character said in "The Hollywood Shuffle" (about representation of black rather than gay characters): "We won't play the Rambos till we stop playing the Sambos."
In another series,
20 years later and made in a different country
Willow and Tara hold hands, are seen moving into a flat together (while Tara complains that she thinks Willow's friends are uncomfortable about them living together) and the sexual subtext of the scenes where
they
cast spells are pretty obvious
Willow and Tara are a canonical couple--you don't have to look for subtext. In fact they don't just act like a couple, there have been several episodes in which they say in so many words that they are lovers.
My point is, if the writers/actors/whoever had intended the characters to read as gay/involved, they could have done so. But they didn't.
And don't forget that apart from anything else B7 was sometimes considered a kids' show which would limit exploration of any kind of sexual relationship with anybody.
-(Y)
--- Dana Shilling dshilling@worldnet.att.net
wrote:
Fiona said:
Fiona:
I once asked him [a gay friend] if he saw
any
of the gay subtext in
B7 which many fans say they do. He replied
that
he detected no sexual tension *at all*
between
Blake and Avon. OK, one man's opinion. He doesn't issue the imprimaturs for the Homintern though.
He's been around the gay community for over ten years-- I'd think in that time he'd've learned to recognise its members. He's certainly slept with enough of them :).
Willow and Tara hold hands, are seen moving into
a
flat together
(while Tara complains that she thinks Willow's
friends are uncomfortable
about them living together) and the sexual
subtext
of the scenes where they
cast spells are pretty obvious
Willow and Tara are a canonical couple--you don't have to look for subtext.
1) Well, yes and no. Willow and Tara are a couple-- but we don't see them in bed together (like we do the straight couples); we barely ever see them kiss. In the "Faith" episodes, Willow introduces Tara to Buffy/Faith as "my friend," not "my lover" (although Buffy/Faith gets the meaning). Most of what there is to indicate a relationship is things like spell-casting or handholding-- it's clear that there's a relationship there, but it's not made explicit like, say, with Buffy and Riley.
2) My point was, if you *want* to make it plain that a couple on a SF show are gay, you can, even without coming right out and yelling it to the heavens.
In fact they don't just act like a couple, there have been several episodes in which they say in so many words that they are lovers.
In the UK, BBC2's in the middle of Series 4 and Sky's about 4 episodes into Series 5, so I probably haven't seen those.
My point is, if the writers/actors/whoever had
intended the characters to
read as gay/involved, they could have done so.
But
they didn't. And don't forget that apart from anything else B7 was sometimes considered a kids' show which would limit exploration of any kind of sexual relationship with anybody.
If that's so, how come Blake's defense lawyer is seen in bed with his wife, and elsewhere it is made plain that Tarrant and Servalan (not to mention Avon and Anna) did a bit more than play travel Scrabble? Not to mention in the very first episode (which was banned in the USA for a long time for this very reason), Blake is accused of being a child molestor? If they can mention that, they can mention anything.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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-
Dana Shilling -
Fiona Moore