Responding to me, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
And seems to get *far* less than his share of the blame, IMO...
"Him"? I thought ORAC was generally called "it". I assume ORAC was the one being referred to as coming out of it the same.
Yes, I was referring to Orac there... And, actually, the crew are pretty inconsistent about which pronoun they use with Orac. Avon always sticks to "it" for all of the computers (although it's possible that even he slips at some point or other), but the others often use "he," particularly Vila. I have a vague memory of *somebody* actually using two different pronouns for Orac in the same sentence, but I may have invented that in my head. (Hmm, obviously this is a question which merits considerable research. Which I am, I must admit, far too lazy to do.)
Personally, I generally use "he" or "she" to refer to anything sentient/sapient (which Orac, IMO, certainly is). So it'd annoy Avon. What do I care? :)
And I think ORAC is always accredited with a fair amount of blame.
Avon seems to get the bulk of it, though. "How could he do such a thing!" and so on. It often seems to me (in fanfics and so forth, anyway) that people tend to overlook the fact that it was all *Orac's* idea...
On Tue, Jul 31, 2001 at 10:40:41AM -0600, Betty Ragan wrote:
Responding to me, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
And seems to get *far* less than his share of the blame, IMO...
And I think ORAC is always accredited with a fair amount of blame.
Avon seems to get the bulk of it, though. "How could he do such a thing!" and so on. It often seems to me (in fanfics and so forth, anyway) that people tend to overlook the fact that it was all *Orac's* idea...
But it's Avon's fault for listening to it. (Insert Biblical quote which I can't remember which basically refutes the argument "He tempted me" with the answer "You wouldn't have been tempted if you hadn't wanted to do it in the first place")
After all, Orac suggested killing Vila and Tarrant in Headhunter, and Avon refused to do it.
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Avon: What's happening? Tarrant: Slave appears to have thrown off his chains. (Blake's 7: Headhunter [D6])
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathryn Andersen" kat@foobox.net To: "Blake's 7 list" blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
On Tue, Jul 31, 2001 at 10:40:41AM -0600, Betty Ragan wrote:
Responding to me, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
And seems to get *far* less than his share of the blame, IMO...
And I think ORAC is always accredited with a fair amount of blame.
Avon seems to get the bulk of it, though. "How could he do such a thing!" and so on. It often seems to me (in fanfics and so forth, anyway) that people tend to overlook the fact that it was all *Orac's* idea...
But it's Avon's fault for listening to it. (Insert Biblical quote which I can't remember which basically refutes the argument "He tempted me" with the answer "You wouldn't have been tempted if you hadn't wanted to do it in the first place")
After all, Orac suggested killing Vila and Tarrant in Headhunter, and Avon refused to do it.
And moreover, he could (with a little bit of prompting) have got Orac to work out what the real cause of the problem was, if he couldn't do this himself.
Best wishes, James
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathryn Andersen" kat@foobox.net To: "Blake's 7 list" blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
On Tue, Jul 31, 2001 at 10:40:41AM -0600, Betty Ragan wrote:
Responding to me, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
And seems to get *far* less than his share of the blame, IMO...
And I think ORAC is always accredited with a fair amount of blame.
Avon seems to get the bulk of it, though. "How could he do such a thing!" and so on. It often seems to me (in fanfics and so forth, anyway) that people tend to overlook the fact that it was all *Orac's* idea...
But it's Avon's fault for listening to it. (Insert Biblical quote which I can't remember which basically refutes the argument "He tempted me" with the answer "You wouldn't have been tempted if you hadn't wanted to do it in the first place")
After all, Orac suggested killing Vila and Tarrant in Headhunter, and Avon refused to do it.
Mind you, there is a difference between that episode (and when Zukan suggests sacrificing crewmembers in Warlord) and Orbit is that in both those cases, there are other crewmembers present, so Avon is partially motivated by the impression he creates on the others. They're prepared to take a lot from him, but not being sacrificed at least until all other possibilities have been exhausted. In Orbit, if Avon had succeded in chucking Vila out of the airlock, he could always have disclaimed responsibility. I suppose you could use Stardrive as a counter-example, in that he uses Vila + Dayna as some sort of "minesweeper", but that counts more as a dangerous rather than suicide mission.
Best wishes, James
On Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:56:33AM +0100, James Mansson ARGO wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathryn Andersen" kat@foobox.net To: "Blake's 7 list" blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
On Tue, Jul 31, 2001 at 10:40:41AM -0600, Betty Ragan wrote:
Responding to me, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
And seems to get *far* less than his share of the blame, IMO...
And I think ORAC is always accredited with a fair amount of blame.
Avon seems to get the bulk of it, though. "How could he do such a thing!" and so on. It often seems to me (in fanfics and so forth, anyway) that people tend to overlook the fact that it was all *Orac's* idea...
But it's Avon's fault for listening to it. (Insert Biblical quote which I can't remember which basically refutes the argument "He tempted me" with the answer "You wouldn't have been tempted if you hadn't wanted to do it in the first place")
After all, Orac suggested killing Vila and Tarrant in Headhunter, and Avon refused to do it.
Mind you, there is a difference between that episode (and when Zukan suggests sacrificing crewmembers in Warlord) and Orbit is that in both those cases, there are other crewmembers present, so Avon is partially motivated by the impression he creates on the others. They're prepared to take a lot from him, but not being sacrificed at least until all other possibilities have been exhausted. In Orbit, if Avon had succeded in chucking Vila out of the airlock, he could always have disclaimed responsibility. I suppose you could use Stardrive as a counter-example, in that he uses Vila + Dayna as some sort of "minesweeper", but that counts more as a dangerous rather than suicide mission.
You forgot to mention the death of Dr. Plaxton in the very same episode!
"What about Dr. Plaxton?" "Who?"
Looking good in the others' eyes has never been a factor in Avon's decisions. If anything, the reverse: he he comes up with pragmatic reasons for the altruistic things that he does, thus making himself look worse than he is.
To Avon, survival and pragmatism are his stated guides. Anyone who lets sentiment get in the way of that has his contempt (which is why Blake puzzled him so). So "looking good in front of the others" is irrelevant -- unless you're saying that he's *so* afraid of them that it would be anti-survival for them to think less of him. Which isn't the case, IMHO.
(I'm not sure I'm explaining this well. Oh well.)
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Cally: Why are we still alive? Blake: We're not sure. There are dozens of ways the ship could destroy us: cut off the air supply, drop the temperature so we freeze to death - Vila: Stop putting ideas into its head. (Blake's 7: Redemption [B1])
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathryn Andersen" kat@foobox.net To: "Blake's 7 list" blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
On Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:56:33AM +0100, James Mansson ARGO wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathryn Andersen" kat@foobox.net To: "Blake's 7 list" blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
On Tue, Jul 31, 2001 at 10:40:41AM -0600, Betty Ragan wrote:
Responding to me, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
And seems to get *far* less than his share of the blame, IMO...
And I think ORAC is always accredited with a fair amount of blame.
Avon seems to get the bulk of it, though. "How could he do such a thing!" and so on. It often seems to me (in fanfics and so forth, anyway) that people tend to overlook the fact that it was all
*Orac's*
idea...
But it's Avon's fault for listening to it. (Insert Biblical quote
which
I can't remember which basically refutes the argument "He tempted me" with the answer "You wouldn't have been tempted if you hadn't wanted
to
do it in the first place")
After all, Orac suggested killing Vila and Tarrant in Headhunter, and Avon refused to do it.
Mind you, there is a difference between that episode (and when Zukan suggests sacrificing crewmembers in Warlord) and Orbit is that in both
those
cases, there are other crewmembers present, so Avon is partially
motivated
by the impression he creates on the others. They're prepared to take a
lot
from him, but not being sacrificed at least until all other
possibilities
have been exhausted. In Orbit, if Avon had succeded in chucking Vila out
of
the airlock, he could always have disclaimed responsibility. I suppose
you
could use Stardrive as a counter-example, in that he uses Vila + Dayna
as
some sort of "minesweeper", but that counts more as a dangerous rather
than
suicide mission.
You forgot to mention the death of Dr. Plaxton in the very same episode!
"What about Dr. Plaxton?" "Who?"Looking good in the others' eyes has never been a factor in Avon's decisions. If anything, the reverse: he he comes up with pragmatic reasons for the altruistic things that he does, thus making himself look worse than he is.
To Avon, survival and pragmatism are his stated guides. Anyone who lets sentiment get in the way of that has his contempt (which is why Blake puzzled him so). So "looking good in front of the others" is irrelevant -- unless you're saying that he's *so* afraid of them that it would be anti-survival for them to think less of him. Which isn't the case, IMHO.
(I'm not sure I'm explaining this well. Oh well.)
Kathryn Andersen
Avon certainly gives the impression of not caring what others think of him.
On the other hand, he does accuse Blake of manipulation and yet also acknowledges the effectiveness of such manipulation.
"James Mansson ARGO" jmansson@argo-software.co.uk wrote: : ----- Original Message ----- : From: "Kathryn Andersen" kat@foobox.net : To: "Blake's 7 list" blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se : Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 10:43 PM : Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
: > Looking good in the others' eyes has never been a factor in Avon's : > decisions. If anything, the reverse: he he comes up with pragmatic : > reasons for the altruistic things that he does, thus making himself look : > worse than he is. : > : > To Avon, survival and pragmatism are his stated guides. Anyone who lets : > sentiment get in the way of that has his contempt (which is why Blake : > puzzled him so). So "looking good in front of the others" is irrelevant : > -- unless you're saying that he's *so* afraid of them that it would be : > anti-survival for them to think less of him. Which isn't the case, : > IMHO. : > : > (I'm not sure I'm explaining this well. Oh well.) : > : > Kathryn Andersen
: Avon certainly gives the impression of not caring what others think of him.
: On the other hand, he does accuse Blake of manipulation and yet also : acknowledges the effectiveness of such manipulation.
: >From a pragmatic point of view, Avon cannot ignore what the others in the : group think of him - otherwise they wouldn't follow him. This doesn't mean : that he has to be nice to them - the "hard man" approach can be just as : effective.
: Possibly, Avon achieves this by accident - he really doesn't care but just : finds that the others follow him anyway.
I think he cares and would rather it weren't so but believes enough in his own superiority that for the sake of his own skin (and possibly for the others though he'd never admit it) he has to take charge to keep them all alive. Not because he has a drive to be in charge, but because he needs it to get done properly.
: I'm inclined to think that there is at least some element of calculation in : how he treats his crew members. For instance, he does seem to have some : insight in how to handle Vila. E.g. he is aware how Tarrant's handling of : Vila in "City" is a bad idea.
: So I suppose what I'm saying is that the "Avon doesn't give a damn" : viewpoint is misleading. He may well not give a damn on a personal level, : but he is surely aware that how he presents himself is important.
Ah, but I (and I suspect Kathryn) see that "City" scene differently. I think Avon is hurt by Vila's obvious fear in that scene. He has to come up with a pragmatic reason Tarrant shouldn't have done it before he'll speak up about it, because as Kathryn says he feels the need to show only the pragmatic aspect of himself--"A talented thief is rare"-- but I think he definitely has personal feelings involved, of friendship toward Vila.
Claudia
On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:11:40AM -0400, she goes out and steals the king's english wrote:
: Possibly, Avon achieves this by accident - he really doesn't care but just : finds that the others follow him anyway.
I think he cares and would rather it weren't so but believes enough in his own superiority that for the sake of his own skin (and possibly for the others though he'd never admit it) he has to take charge to keep them all alive. Not because he has a drive to be in charge, but because he needs it to get done properly.
Yes! The INTJ in charge because nobody else is competent enough. Avon doesn't like the responsibility at all. But what you have in the third season is Tarrant coming along thinking he should be in charge, because he sees this ship not being run the way a ship "ought" to be run, because there's no obvious person in charge. And of course that's because Blake's no longer there, and Avon doesn't want to. So it all ends up being pretty lasiez faire... and there are times (like Harvest of Kairos) when Tarrant *is* in charge. But Avon doesn't trust Tarrant to be able to look after them all, brash young thing that he is, so he clashes with Tarrant.
But, somehow, after Terminal-Rescue, Tarrant has decided that he's Avon's lieutenant, and Avon has resigned himself to being in charge.
: I'm inclined to think that there is at least some element of calculation in : how he treats his crew members. For instance, he does seem to have some : insight in how to handle Vila. E.g. he is aware how Tarrant's handling of : Vila in "City" is a bad idea.
: So I suppose what I'm saying is that the "Avon doesn't give a damn" : viewpoint is misleading. He may well not give a damn on a personal level, : but he is surely aware that how he presents himself is important.
Ah, but I (and I suspect Kathryn) see that "City" scene differently. I think Avon is hurt by Vila's obvious fear in that scene. He has to come up with a pragmatic reason Tarrant shouldn't have done it before he'll speak up about it, because as Kathryn says he feels the need to show only the pragmatic aspect of himself--"A talented thief is rare"-- but I think he definitely has personal feelings involved, of friendship toward Vila.
I do agree. I didn't mean to give the impression that Avon doesn't *care* -- it's just that he'd rather people didn't know that. "Sentiment is weakness. Let it get hold of you and you are dead."
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Avon: We know all that. Orac: Since I lack sensors to assess what is or is not in your mind, I cannot assess what is or is not already known to you. (Blake's 7: Children of Auron [C7])
Replying to she goes out.... and Kathryn, re City:
Ah, but I (and I suspect Kathryn) see that "City" scene differently. I think Avon is hurt by Vila's obvious fear in that scene. He has to come up with a pragmatic reason Tarrant shouldn't have done it before he'll speak up about it, because as Kathryn says he feels the need to show only the pragmatic aspect of himself--"A talented thief is rare"-- but I think he definitely has personal feelings involved, of friendship toward Vila.
I do agree. I didn't mean to give the impression that Avon doesn't *care* -- it's just that he'd rather people didn't know that. "Sentiment is weakness. Let it get hold of you and you are dead."
It's a cushion shot for Avon...he gets to make Vila feel better and Tarrant look worse.
-(Y)
Kathryn wrote:
But it's Avon's fault for listening to it. (Insert Biblical quote which I can't remember which basically refutes the argument "He tempted me" with the answer "You wouldn't have been tempted if you hadn't wanted to do it in the first place")
The closest I can find is James 1.13-14, though that doesn't quite match: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."
It would seem to underlie Adam's conversation with God in Genesis 3, though.
On Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 01:14:27PM +0100, Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
Kathryn wrote:
But it's Avon's fault for listening to it. (Insert Biblical quote which I can't remember which basically refutes the argument "He tempted me" with the answer "You wouldn't have been tempted if you hadn't wanted to do it in the first place")
The closest I can find is James 1.13-14, though that doesn't quite match: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."
Yes, that was the one I was thinking of. My translation has "he is lured and enticed by his own desire" -- which I think can be reasonably paraphrased as "you're tempted because you really did want to do it in the first place"...
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "He's got a diamond - he must be an alien!" -- remark during "The Day The Earth Stood Still" at the Valhalla 24-hour SF marathon (9-2-91)
-
Betty Ragan -
Dana Shilling -
Harriet Monkhouse -
James Mansson ARGO -
Kathryn Andersen -
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