I think this has gone past a joke. Quite simply, being called worthless crap hurts.
I have tried not to get upset at what feels like a very personal - and what certainly was an extremely vitriolic - attack (sneering at the way I speak - my personality rather than my views - being rather a different matter to disputing the way we interpret an episode) Wendy's comments about 'sickening crap' and Carol and Shane's approval thereof have struck a very painful nerve.
I've been assuming for two years that people took my 'Fearless Leader', 'My Darling', etc, the burbles sending up the sillier aspects of the show and splattering capitals and generally having a bit of fun with the characters and the show as just that - fun, and had the sensitivity to discriminate between that and my serious comments. I thought some people enjoyed the humour in it, that most of you got a laugh out of it sometimes; the idea that I've been imposing, and no one's been impolite enough to tell me that they were nauseated by my style of prose has upset me, since there's not a lot I can do about it. I can't turn into someone else because Wendy loathes the way I think (from the Deliverance thread) and the way I phrase those thoughts (now).
I'm sorry if this makes anyone uncomfortable, but again, I can only ask those who hate the way I write so much to killfile. And can they drop the subject of my worthlessnss as a poster based on my stomach-churning style of prose, please?
Sally
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--- Sally Manton smanton@hotmail.com wrote:
I think this has gone past a joke. Quite simply, being called worthless crap hurts.
I never used the phrase worthless crap! But if you feel I've gotten too personal, then I formally and publicly apologise. You are not a worthless person in any way and in any regard.
I started this discussion because I thought this was a good place to air some of the things which bother me about some of the things you were talking about. Since then, I've come under a fair bit of highly personal attack myself (so what's new?). I meant to attack the viewpoint in your post (which is held by a LOT of people on the list, and you can hardly call them worthless!), and maybe it came across as attacking you. In which case, let me make it clear that I wanted to bring the S/M discussion out into the open, not to attack Sally. Perhaps this was misguided. But I also didn't want my posts to be ignored.
And I don't think Carol and Shane (or Neil) meant to sound like they were attacking you either. Just saying that they agreed with some of the things I said, not necessarily with the way they were said.
I've been assuming for two years that people took my 'Fearless Leader', 'My Darling', etc, the burbles sending up the sillier aspects of the show and splattering capitals and generally having a bit of fun with the characters and the show as just that - fun, and had the sensitivity to discriminate between that and my serious comments. I thought some people enjoyed the humour in it, that most of you got a laugh out of it sometimes; the idea that I've been imposing, and no one's been impolite enough to tell me that they were nauseated by my style of prose has upset me, since there's not a lot I can do about it. I can't turn into someone else because Wendy loathes the way I think (from the Deliverance thread) and the way I phrase those thoughts (now).
I don't loathe the way you think or phrase your thoughts. I *disagree* with both of these-- but I thought that was my prerogative. And you can take comfort from the fact that more people seem to agree with you on this than me.
And can they drop the subject of my worthlessnss as a poster based on my stomach-churning style of prose, please?
But the discussions which have come up from it *haven't* been about your prose style. They've been about the good and bad points of Tarrant, they've been about S/M in fanfic, they've been about Avon as a lust object. I didn't want to attack you personally, just to discuss these other things. Again, everybody, SALLY IS NOT WORTHLESS. And I'd like to say Thank you, Sally, for posting under fire :).
Wendy
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There are a lot of issues here getting entangled (quite apart from personal feelings).
Wendy said:
In which case, let me make it clear that I wanted to bring the S/M discussion out into the open,
Other posts in this thread have also referred to h/c, and to differential treatment of suffering by male and female characters.
There are stories about S/M as a consensual activity between series characters, and stories about pain and humiliation inflicted on characters without consent. Some of these stories are intended to be erotic, some operate as erotic even if not intended, and some are potent turn-offs to readers who were intended to be turned on by the writer! I'm quite uncomfortable about stories that eroticize violence, and especially that eroticize rape. (I also LIKE stories about kinky sex, as a voluntary choice between adult partners, but YMMV.)
Personally, I've written about 55 B7 stories, about 10% of which involve ANY kind of violence at all. But I'm quite aware that there's something perverse about pioneering genres such as "B7 drawing-room comedy" and "slash stories with no explicit sex." I mean, B7 canon isn't ABOUT peaceful exploration of space-- they're not boldly going where no man has gone before, they're blowing up !@@#. Canonically, the Federation achieves its objectives through genocide, perpetual warfare, torture, and slavery. So writing about such things is entirely canonical. In a science fiction series about a war, it's pretty much to be expected that people will get hurt, and any writer with a less contemptuous view of canon than I have would be likely to write about situations in which violence occurs or is a real possibility.
H/c stories don't have to be slash--they often are, but in large part because slash is such a large percentage of the fanfic corpus. However, if they're NOT slash they may involve eroticization of harm to female characters, so it's Scylla and Charybdis. Furthermore, as this thread has shown, fen often value the strong emotions between the characters (not necessarily sexual, and if sexual not necessarily homosexual), so the h/c writer and reader may see these stories as a way to highlight bravery, or compassion, or to elicit emotions from a normally stoic person. I don't really like h/c stories either, but in part because I think they're often an evasion of writing slash--which is NOT the general opinion!
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Dana Shilling -
Penberriss Wendy S. -
Sally Manton