Sally wrote:

But do Mary Sues (the real thing) represent or encourage anything of the

sort?

Not in my reading experience - quite the opposite. She's even more

strictly

defined that a badly-written comp tech <g> and - what is much much worse - has an appalling effect on the writing of the characters that I already

know

and like.

It's a bit of case of bad writing is bad writing is bad writing. To my mind there's nothing wrong with authorial presence in a story. There's also nothing wrong with adding a powerful external character, whatever his/her gender. I fear it's not what one does, it's how one does it that counts. (IMO)

There is also the Shiny Happy aspect of both the May Sue and the

(mentioned by

Kathryn) James Bond types (which annoy me every bit as much in B7 fiction, BTW). They're irritating enough in Shinier Happier universes - in this

bleak,

somewhere between black-and-blacker one, peopled by bad-tempered, pig-headed, quarrelsome, suspicious, self-centred, temperamental types (and that's just the Good Guys), they stick out like a Rainbow Princess Doll in a Svankmayer film.

Again, shiny happy MS's are bad writing in any context -- if the MS is perfect and conflict-free he/she isn't a *character* and thus doesn't belong in the story.

And <deeply offended sniff> *I like* onboard stories

No offence was intended. Great. So do I, if one doesn't mind the fact that such stories often tend to end up as pure talking heads.

Tavia