Alison Page wrote:

Mistral said -

...

the entire idea of non-combatants in war is both very recent historically, and Western in origin

I think you are mistaken. There was a (European) academic on the radio yesterday saying that the Koran (unlike western religious texts) explicitly condemns the killing of civilians. Even at the height of the middle ages, the crusaders recognised that their Islamic enemies were honorable and chivalrous soldiers.

Yes, Mohammed taught peace. And his followers have observed his teachings about as well as the followers of Christ have followed Christ's--which is to say intermittently and with varying degrees of success.

I did make a point of saying that not all Moslems are potential terrorists. However the extremist fundamentalists that view us as the enemy and want us stopped and destroyed are as much a part of Islam as those who follow Mohammed's words of peace, in the same way that the Christianity that spawned the pacifist Quakers also spawned the Spanish Inquisition. This fundamentalism does have an effect on the entire culture, much the way that we all know bits of the Bible, sometimes without even realizing it *is* the Bible. The Palestinians celebrating the attacks on the US were certainly not the majority of Palestinians, but they were in number enough that one cannot reasonably assume that they were either a cultural aberration, or all insane.

I have - even quite recently to people on this list - criticised various religions. But I think it is quite wrong to imply that terrorism and killing are more in line with some religions than others, or more a part of religion that of atheism, or anything else of that kind.

If you really think that various religions and cultures do not have varying morality with regard to killing, I refer you to the Thuggee assassins who worshipped Kali, and the Sawi people of New Guinea, who as recently as 1962, when presented with the Christ story by missionaries, acclaimed Judas Iscariot the hero of the piece, since they idealized betrayal and murder.

It is easy for us to persuade ourselves that we are better than other people. It is comforting to do so in times like these.

I'm sure we need and want to discuss this situation on various mailing lists. However I would be very upset if Lysator hosted blanket condemnation of non-Western cultures. We in the 'west' did not invent virtue and honour, and we are not the only people in the world who respect them.

I'm fairly baffled why it is that you seem to have taken my post in the exact *opposite* of the spirit it was intended. My entire point was that well-meaning, rational people can have varying belief systems, and that we should be aware that not sharing our specific cultural morality does not make others insane (as I've heard many claims which quite disgust me). I was expressing, in a way, my hope that 'clearer heads will prevail', and that whatever action my government takes will not be a matter of unthinking bloodlust and vengeance.

I was also quite careful *not* to prefer Western culture over non-Western, nor make any moral claims for any particular set of values. To do so would have been the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. It would also be quite remarkable, since my own values fall considerably outside of mainstream Western thought. <shrug> If you prefer some particular values I made reference to, those are your inferences, not my implications. I certainly do *not* consider Western morality the source of virtue and honour.

Having said that, it would be disingenuous to say that all value systems are equal. A person must practice his own values and morals, and if he doesn't think they are the best available set of values and morals, then IMNSHO, he should change them. So, if in fact Osama bin Laden (or whoever) is behind the attacks on NY and DC, and if his values and morals tell him he must do these things, then he must do these things. I disagree with the actions because they violate *my* values and morals, and I want him stopped. Neither of us is necessarily insane, but one of us must be wrong.

Values will clash, however. That is inevitable.

Mistral