Responding to me, Wendy wrote:
that's not the impression you mean to convey, you should think seriously about the means by which you express yourself.
Point taken. I hope you're not taking this post personally :).
No. (And, to be honest, for some reason I tend to get much more upset on other people's behalf than I do on my own, anyway.) At any rate, now that an apology has been made, I shall back off.
And you've just proved that I *haven't* made it impossible to disagree with me on that point. You just did, by arguing that h/c is not necessarily sadistic.
But that "not all of it" does suggest to me that you'd acknowledge that *some* is...
Certainly. There's a vast diversity in fanfic, and you can find just about anything in it somewhere. And there certainly *is* fanfic that involves honest-to-god S&M. But I don't think that *that* is appropriate to discuss here, particularly.
That is, if you want to debate the point with me :)
I think it's an interesting and perfectly valid point to discuss, if it can be kept on a level of open and civil discourse.
Appending your next post here...
OK, I promised myself I'd stop responding, but I feel I should clarify my position, which I'll try to do as neutrally as I can, and apologies in advance if I upset you by this, Betty.
No, I am not remotely upset by this. And I do quite sincerely appreciate both the change in tone and the clarification.
My understanding of the concept of "Suffering Beautifully" was that a character is physically or emotionally hurt, and that this pain makes him more attractive in the eyes of the reader and/or writer. Which seems to me have a sadistic twist to it, even if there's not actual S/M sex.
I'd say that this is an accurate description, but that the "sadistic twist" conclusion does not necessarily follow. "Sadism," I believe, means enjoying inflicting pain on others (whether in a sexual context or otherwise). I think, for those who enjoy watching a character "suffering beautifully" the attraction is usually not in the infliction of pain, itself (which can often be rather unpleasant to watch or read about), but in the way he *behaves* under physical or emotional pain, the way he handles it, the way he responds to it. I suspect this varies a lot from person to person, and I don't pretend to speak for any particular individual, but I think one thing that appeals to people about Avon, in particular, is the dignity with which he bears up under pain, as well as the very human vulerability he shows only under extreme stress. It's something that has a lot more to do with the *character* than with the *pain*, if that makes any sense.
In the case of "hurt/comfort," the emphasis, most usually, is more on the *comfort* than on the *hurt*. Indeed, instead of a sadistic desire to *inflict* pain, it's entirely possible, I think, to regard h/c fic as a manifestation of the desire to comfort those in pain.
-- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
From: Betty Ragan bragan@aoc.nrao.edu
My understanding of the concept of "Suffering Beautifully" was that a character is physically or emotionally hurt, and that this pain makes him more attractive in the eyes of the reader and/or writer. Which seems to me have a sadistic twist to it, even if there's not actual S/M sex.
I'd say that this is an accurate description, but that the "sadistic twist" conclusion does not necessarily follow. "Sadism," I believe, means enjoying inflicting pain on others (whether in a sexual context or otherwise). I think, for those who enjoy watching a character "suffering beautifully" the attraction is usually not in the infliction of pain, itself (which can often be rather unpleasant to watch or read about), but in the way he *behaves* under physical or emotional pain, the way he handles it, the way he responds to it.
But isn't that, though, the attraction of sadism too? I think Wendy's got a point here, because as I argued in the recent thread on this subject, not just any old injury will do. The debilitating injury is carefully contrived by the writer in terms of its physical effect on the victim and the circumstances in which it occurs, analogous to the ritual elements of BDSM - costumes, masks, procedures (how the hell do I come to know all this stuff?) etc. And like all ritual, it's purpose is to lend a sense of importance to an otherwise mundane event.
I suspect this varies a lot from person to person, and I don't pretend to speak for any particular individual, but I think one thing that appeals to people about Avon, in particular, is the dignity with which he bears up under pain, as well as the very human vulerability he shows only under extreme stress. It's something that has a lot more to do with the *character* than with the *pain*, if that makes any sense.
But is that really different from hearing the agonised screams/ecstatic moans of someone as you flog them or drip hot wax over their back (how the *hell* do I come to know this?). The pain of sadism is not the end, it is a means to an end - sexual gratification through a sense of control. The gratification in h/c might not be sexual (though I suspect it is in most cases, especially those involving Avon), but an essentially similar process is at work.
In the case of "hurt/comfort," the emphasis, most usually, is more on the *comfort* than on the *hurt*. Indeed, instead of a sadistic desire to *inflict* pain, it's entirely possible, I think, to regard h/c fic as a manifestation of the desire to comfort those in pain.
This, I think, is true - it's the comfort, rather than the hurt, that provides the gratification, but in order to have the comfort you must first have the hurt.
Neil (who is now expecting people at Redemption to give him curious sidelong glances as he walks past)
Neil said:
I'd say that this is an accurate description, but that the "sadistic twist" conclusion does not necessarily follow. "Sadism," I believe, means enjoying inflicting pain on others (whether in a sexual context or otherwise).
I'd say rather that sadism is deriving sexual pleasure from inflicting pain--the moral distinction is whether the recipients enjoy it or not. In a non-sexual context, pain is frequently inflicted in the name of patriotism, religion, etc.
But isn't that, though, the attraction of sadism too? I think Wendy's got
a
point here, because as I argued in the recent thread on this subject, not just any old injury will do. The debilitating injury
Usually they're not debilitating though--nothing that a quick regen cast and cuddle can't cure. (In a story of mine I said that Blake was surprised that Cally's prescription was a bubble bath and half a bottle of champagne.)
And like all ritual, it's purpose is to lend a sense of importance to an otherwise mundane event.
We shouldn't forget the close connection between "ritual" and "cliche" (valuable work-reduction tool for the writer).
But is that really different from hearing the agonised screams/ecstatic moans of someone as you flog them or drip hot wax over their back (how the *hell* do I come to know this?).
You read a lot of fanfic? Don't worry, Neil--you've said a lot of quite believable things about space ships.
BTW, there is no such thing as really HOT wax-- it has a very low melting point. And I'd say that the difference is between agonized screams and ecstatic moans.
This, I think, is true - it's the comfort, rather than the hurt, that provides the gratification, but in order to have the comfort you must
first
have the hurt.
It's always fascinating to me what we find in our imaginations, and what we choose to put down on paper. It's a very common factor in all genres that suffering is essential to catharsis.
Neil (who is now expecting people at Redemption to give him curious
sidelong
glances as he walks past)
Hey, lots of people at Redemption are on FC too! I'd be AWFULLY careful about where I wore my keys if I were you, mate.
-(Y)
-
Betty Ragan -
Dana Shilling -
Neil Faulkner