OK. Thus spake the woman whose supervisor is in Berlin for the week and therefore has far too much time on her hands:
In the interests of brevity, I'm confining this mainly to physical contact which *could* be taken as indicating sexual interest (i.e. not including things like Blake helping Jenna out of a tree etc.), with a few significant exceptions (like the Duel-death-of-a-friend bit).
CYGNUS ALPHA
Blake teleports back aboard the Liberator and Jenna runs over and embraces him. Blake returns the hug and then, when they part, transfers his hands to her waist. Physical contact lasts 6 seconds approx.
TIME SQUAD
In the cargo area, Blake, Avon and Jenna are standing in a group. Jenna says to Avon, "Nice flying", Avon walks off, Jenna and Blake exchange looks and then as they walk past each other Blake squeezes her upper arm.
DUEL
Two powerful supernatural beings intend to teach Blake and Travis a lesson. Half of which is the death of an enemy, the other the death of a friend. Jenna is the crew member picked for Blake to demonstrate the latter.
BREAKDOWN
Blake shouts "Alright, Avon, that's enough!" when Avon grabs Jenna's upper arms in a threatening manner.
BOUNTY
When Blake first meets Jenna in the teleport bay he puts his arm around her shoulders.
In the cell, everyone believes that Jenna has betrayed them, except Blake.
After examining the body of Tarvin (her ex lover) Jenna tells Blake that "the Amagon is dead." Blake, in response, looks into Jenna's eyes, places his hand on the side of her face and says in a soft voice, "take us out of here, Jenna." They exchange warm smiles.
Jenna, again, acts jealous when Tyce shows an interest in Blake.
KILLER
Two shot of Blake and Jenna. Although they are talking about the plot, the shot is unusual in that it suggests a closeness, or rather an intimacy between the two characters. When Blake tells Jenna he is going to teleport down to the Federation base, Jenna protests, saying it's dangerous. Blake puts his arm around her shoulders and says, "I will be very careful", they exchange warm smiles and Jenna says, "all right". Blake then leaves.
(interestingly, this scene was directed by Vere Lorrimer, who directed more episodes than anyone else, and was producer on Series 4-- so he knows his B7)
I do have to admit that in the other Series 2 episodes which I have to hand-- Redemption, Shadow, Horizon, Pressure Point, Trial, The Keeper and Star One-- there is no "touching" between Blake and Jenna that would suggest any particularly romantic involvement, and I think only in Hostage do we see the "Blake's my man" stuff from Jenna again, and that's because of Inga.
In truth the romance between Blake and Jenna has a certain innocence to it, which is what you would expect from series 1 and 2. However, Blake's reactions to Jenna are different and more tactile than his reactions to Cally. The same goes for Jenna in how she reacts to Blake as compared to the rest of the crew.
On balance, then, the existing evidence does support a *potential* relationship between Blake and Jenna (not saying it did happen, not saying it didn't, just that there's interest and it's not all Jenna's), whereas on the same whip-through of the series, I *was* also watching to see if the same could be said for Avon and Blake, and I didn't see any contact between them that was remotely suggestive.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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I'm sort reiterating (and perhaps expanding on) a few points from the "slash" thread here, I realize. Some slash content here, also. Be warned!
Fiona Moore wrote:
On balance, then, the existing evidence does support a *potential* relationship between Blake and Jenna (not saying it did happen, not saying it didn't, just that there's interest and it's not all Jenna's),
I certainly agree that the possibility exists, and that this stuff is at least mildly suggestive. And I do think that the attraction on Jenna's part is very clear (although there's no good indication of just how strong that attraction might be). But I still don't think any of the physical touching constitutes a solid proof of sexual interest on Blake's part. *Emotional* concern, yes, but that ain't the same thing.
Which leads me to take the exact same attitude towards it as I do towards A/B: It might be there. It might not. See it if you want to.
(The "Duel" thing is a different matter, and is, I think, a very interesting point.)
whereas on the same whip-through of the series, I *was* also watching to see if the same could be said for Avon and Blake, and I didn't see any contact between them that was remotely suggestive.
What about the way Blake touches Avon's elbow in "Redemption?" That seems to me to be about on par with some of the examples you mentioned for Jenna.
It *also* seems to me, though, that there's an important consideration here when comparing Blake's responses to Jenna and his responses to Avon, which is that the two of them have very different personalities. Jenna welcomes the touchy-feely stuff from Blake, as she demonstrates very early on, when she hugs him in "Cyngus Alpha" (which you cited). Avon is a much more prickly and distant kind of person, and it would not seem to me to be in character for him to easily accept physical affection (whether sexual or platonic), particularly in public or when in the midst of a serious situation. It can easily be speculated (and, indeed, has been by many) that the reason we pretty much only see Avon and Blake touching "suggestively" is when there's been an explosion or something is because Avon uses stuff like that as an excuse. :) (Actually, I could make a semi-reasonable grounded-in-canon case that we see that happening in "Duel." I wouldn't expect you to believe it for a moment, of course, but if you wanna hear it, just ask. I think I'm about posted out for right now...)
This post rated PG.
----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Ragan ragan@sdc.org
On balance, then, the existing evidence does support a *potential* relationship between Blake and Jenna (not saying it did happen, not saying it didn't, just that there's interest
and
it's not all Jenna's),
I certainly agree that the possibility exists, and that this stuff is at least mildly suggestive. And I do think that the attraction on Jenna's part is very clear (although there's no good indication of just how strong that attraction might be). But I still don't think any of the physical touching constitutes a solid proof of sexual interest on Blake's part. *Emotional* concern, yes, but that ain't the same thing.
I would disagree with that. Again, recall that in Duel (written by Terry Nation), his feelings for her were evidently greater than his feelings for the rest of the crew. Secondly, while the visible interest may be *greater* from Jenna than from Blake (and why not? As you point out later, people express interest on different levels), the examples I gave demonstrate that there is at least some reciprocation on his part.
Now, as to the question of showing or not showing sexual interest in one gender or the other: let me, at this point, give a parallel example from "Weapon." Now, I think I'm right in saying that it seems to be more or less accepted that Carnell is bisexual. The *onscreen* evidence for this comes right before the line "you have my leave to go." Carnell gives the staff officer his chess set, and then gives him a "cruisy" look, looking him up and down his body. The whole look takes less than two seconds.
Now, however (this is a side angle but IMO a relevant one, for reasons which I hope I shall make clear), we know that the character was meant to be bisexual because of two things Scott Fredericks has said. First of all, that Scott Fredericks saw the character as "a bit camp" and sexually ambiguous, and so put in the look. Secondly, that George Spenton-Foster, upon seeing this, thought that this fit the character as well, and left it in (instead of, as he could have, asking for a retake or accusing Fredericks of pissing about. Similarly, negative evidence here, but if Chris Boucher, the character's creator, had also disagreed with Spenton-Foster, he could have insisted on a recut of the scene, and it is on record that he was present at the time of recording and said nothing). So in the case of Carnell, we *do* know what the creators' intent was with regard to the character, and we know how this intent was expressed on screen.
Now, the expression of intent here is a *minute* detail; this is the blink-and-you-miss-it stuff I personally love so much :). In fact, throughout the bulk of the episode Carnell flirts heavily with Servalan; "The look" takes two seconds. But those two seconds are, nonetheless, hard evidence, which is backed up by the fact that we do know what the character's creators' intent was.
But thing is, with A/B, even when you get down to this minute level of detail, you *don't* get cruisy looks, eyes lingering on primary or secondary sexual characteristics, jealousy etc. Just "a feeling" on the part of some viewers, and a few accidental touches during explosions, when passing under pipelines etc.
Which leads me to take the exact same attitude towards it as I do towards A/B: It might be there. It might not. See it if you want to.
As I think I've made clear, I take that attitude to B/J-- suggestive, but proves nothing. But as I said, I don't even see suggestion for A/B.
whereas on the same whip-through of the series, I *was* also watching to see if the same could be said for Avon and Blake,
and
I didn't see any contact between them that was remotely suggestive.
What about the way Blake touches Avon's elbow in "Redemption?" That seems to me to be about on par with some of the examples you mentioned for Jenna.
The scene:
Blake is being menaced by one of the Liberator's cables, which has taken on a life of its own. His right arm is extended in self-defence. Avon enters the room and sees the cable. He bends down to try and move under it. In passing, he pushes Blake's arm to one side (and even that's not too sure, since Gareth Thomas is wearing that awful green thing with the yard-wide sleeves :) ).
This contact is a brush, not a squeeze, a touch, a caress. Whereas a facial touch, or a squeeze of the upper arm, is quite deliberate and requires a certain intention.
It *also* seems to me, though, that there's an important consideration here when comparing Blake's responses to Jenna and his responses to Avon, which is that the two of them have very different personalities. Jenna welcomes the touchy-feely stuff from Blake, as she demonstrates very early on, when she hugs him in "Cyngus Alpha" (which you cited). Avon is a much more prickly and distant kind of person, and it would not seem to me to be in character for him to easily accept physical affection (whether sexual or platonic), particularly in public or when in the midst of a serious situation.
Yes but... see above, with regard to Carnell. Carnell never touches, hugs or caresses the officer-- and yet, Carnell's bisexuality *is* conveyed, through a tiny, two-second look.(OT, but see also my Doctor Who: Stones of Blood example. Vivien doesn't touch Amelia, or Romana except to use her as a hostage, but conveys her sexuality through looks and suggestive words. The "Mrs Trefusis" line gives the game away totally, of course, but only for those who know their Bloomsbury Group). It wouldn't take tons of physical contact to convey attraction; all it would take would be a two-second look.
Or take Kingpin's example of Kerril and Vila. After That Scene In The Cabin, they *aren't* all over each other; they aren't snogging, grappling, whatever. But there is a subtle change in their body language, in their physical proximity to each other, in the things they talk about and argue about. It's plain for everyone to see that the two have been lovers, but this is conveyed in a very subtle way. And again, there's no subtle alteration of this sort between Blake and Avon.
It can easily be speculated (and,
indeed, has been by many) that the reason we pretty much only see Avon and Blake touching "suggestively" is when there's been an explosion or something is because Avon uses stuff like that as an excuse. :) (Actually, I could make a semi-reasonable grounded-in-canon case that we see that happening in "Duel." I wouldn't expect you to believe it for a moment, of course, but if you wanna hear it, just ask. I think I'm about posted out for right now...)
If you're talking about the "Do I have a choice?" scene, the contact is slightly longer than usual but no more than is necessary given that there has just been an explosion; Blake's eyes are quite cold and we don't actually see Avon's. Way ahead of you :).
But no, I don't believe the notion that Avon is using explosions as an excuse for touching Blake holds water :). I mean, in an explosion one generally *does* grab onto the nearest thing for support. If Gan, or Vila, had been standing next to Avon during the abovementioned explosion, Avon could have grabbed onto them. If he had been close to the seating area, he might have grabbed the chair. I think it's very significant that the only times we see touching between them *is* at times when the touch has a nonsexual justification-- since that would suggest that there's more justifiable reasons to touch than attraction. Occam's Razor.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Fiona Moore wrote:
Now, as to the question of showing or not showing sexual interest in one gender or the other: let me, at this point, give a parallel example from "Weapon." Now, I think I'm right in saying that it seems to be more or less accepted that Carnell is bisexual.
Er, I don't regard that as accepted. I mean, I think it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation, but I don't think it's clear enough that I'd regard it as canonical. (Given, of course, my "canon is only what's on the screen" POV.)
What about the way Blake touches Avon's elbow in "Redemption?" That seems to me to be about on par with some of the examples you mentioned for Jenna.
The scene:
Blake is being menaced by one of the Liberator's cables, which has taken on a life of its own.
Er, nope, that's not the scene I meant. Sorry for the confusion. The scene I was thinking of is earlier, on the flight deck. Blake has been giving Avon instructions on all the various repairs, etc. he wants Avon to do. Then he touches Avon on the elbow and turns to leave. (And Avon says "Is that all? What shall I do with the other hand?," a semi-favorite line of mine.) Avon's reaction, admittedly, is very cold and aloof, but he's very snarky with Blake throughout that whole episode (more than usual, I mean). I suspect they'd had a between-episodes tiff and he wasn't remotely ready to make up. ;)
It can easily be speculated (and, indeed, has been by many) that the reason we pretty much only see Avon and Blake touching "suggestively" is when there's been an explosion or something is because Avon uses stuff like that as an excuse. :) (Actually, I could make a semi-reasonable grounded-in-canon case that we see that happening in "Duel." I wouldn't expect you to believe it for a moment, of course, but if you wanna hear it, just ask. I think I'm about posted out for right now...)
If you're talking about the "Do I have a choice?" scene, the contact is slightly longer than usual but no more than is necessary given that there has just been an explosion; Blake's eyes are quite cold and we don't actually see Avon's. Way ahead of you :).
Yes, that's the one, but it seems a *lot* longer than necessary to me. Long enough that, if I were Blake (and wasn't OK with the idea of Avon clinging to me), I would have started to feel *very* uncomfortable. Note that "Oh, he was worried that the ship would take another hit and was clinging to Blake for stability" is not a valid argument, as they had *plenty* of warning before each impact, and he could easily have let go of Blake and braced himself against something more suitable.
----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Ragan ragan@sdc.org
"Weapon." Now, I think I'm right in saying that it seems to be more or
less accepted
that Carnell is bisexual.
Er, I don't regard that as accepted. I mean, I think it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation, but I don't think it's clear enough that I'd regard it as canonical. (Given, of course, my "canon is only what's on the screen" POV.)
But (not to crack the wind of the poor phrase, running it thus), it *is* onscreen. Compare the Carnell "look" to the one Avon gives the Blue Dress Woman in "Gold," or to the one Dorian gives Avon in "Rescue" (which is backed up by the dialogue: "I can indulge any taste.... any sensation... <look> any *vice*..." :)...), and I think you'll see exactly what I mean. The only reason I brought up what the actor said about the production was simply to explain why the look was there, not to claim production evidence as canon or anything of that nature :). With or without that evidence, that's still a cruisy look...
scene I was thinking of is earlier, on the flight deck. Blake has been giving Avon instructions on all the various repairs, etc. he wants Avon to do. Then he touches Avon on the elbow
With the tips of his fingers! And once again, there's nothing in the way of eye contact either...
(And Avon
says "Is that all? What shall I do with the other hand?," a semi-favorite line of mine.)
(which, incidentally, is a common English expression)
Avon's reaction, admittedly, is very cold and aloof, but he's very snarky with Blake throughout that whole episode (more than usual, I mean).
Snark content seems about per usual to me :). That line doesn't strike me as any worse than the "Have you considered amputation?" one...
I suspect they'd had a between-episodes tiff and he wasn't remotely ready to make up. ;)
Aha! Supposition! Offside! Offside! :)
Remember, though, Avon really doesn't like being told what to do, and we know that from earlier episodes. If you were Avon, wouldn't you have a go? And as for making it up, when do those two *ever* make up? They do seem to spend Season 1 and 2 continually at each others' throats...
If you're talking about the "Do I have a choice?" scene, the contact is slightly longer than usual but no more than is necessary given that
there
has just been an explosion; Blake's eyes are quite cold and we don't actually see Avon's. Way ahead of you :).
Yes, that's the one, but it seems a *lot* longer than necessary to me. Long enough that, if I were Blake (and wasn't OK with the idea of Avon clinging to me), I would have started to feel *very* uncomfortable. Note that "Oh, he was worried that the ship would take another hit and was clinging to Blake for stability" is not a valid argument, as they had *plenty* of warning before each impact, and he could easily have let go of Blake and braced himself against something more suitable.
Ah, no, sorry, that *is* actually a valid argument :). What happens in that scene is that the crew are trying to conserve power. Each time a plasma bolt is detected, Jenna calls out "Activate!" and we hear the buzz of the force wall; we have a three to four second pause before impact and then, when the coast is clear, Jenna calls out "deactivate!"
Now, in the "Do I have a choice?" bit, Jenna calls out "Activate!" and we hear the buzz. The impact occurs and Blake and Avon hold onto each other for support. *Jenna does not say "deactivate," which implies that there is still a danger of being hit by other plasma bolts.* At this juncture, if Avon and Blake let go of each other, they could be knocked sideways by the next impact, as they don't know when it's coming; the buzz of the force wall is still audible in the background. As soon as Jenna *does* say "deactivate," Blake and Avon let go of each other immediately. As before, I say Occam's Razor :).
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Fiona Moore