Stephen wrote:
Someone on the Lyst suggested the name of the episode, apart from the drug, also alludes to the Terra Nostra being the Federation's 'shadow'.
<bows modestly>
Oops, sorry, Stephen, I forgot it was you. At any rate, I thought it was a very shrewd observation.
I think that Blake's darker side had been hinted at earlier in Mission to Destiny, Breakdown and Bounty for example.
I can't remember anything naughty Blake did in Bounty - apart from breaking Sarkoff's records. Could you remind me?
I think Boucher is more detached from Blake. Nation's Blake is a bit like the wartime view of Churchill - shown fighting for freedom in a heroic light. Boucher's version is more like Churchill as shown by modern historians - yes he was a good guy but he could be ruthless, nasty and just plain wrong on occasions. So I think that Boucher is a revisionist, subverting the orthodox view
I'm all for subversion - but what do you get when you subvert the idea that people should oppose totalitarianism and big, powerful states which tend to control the world? I view B7 as a subversive discourse in itself. Practically all of the pop-culture heroes of today are law abiders, police officers, star fleet officers, army officers, always upholding status quo. On the other hand, B7 confronts us with a world order which is fundamentally wrong and which *has* to be opposed. I don't think you can compare this to Churchill - he also defended status quo against the bad guys. Even Robin Hood doesn't jeopardize the given order, since he just opposes the usurper of the throne, not the concept of the throne in itself. The idea behind B7 is much more radical. No, I don't think it was a good idea to subvert Blake and everything he stands for.
N.
Natasa wrote:
I'm all for subversion - but what do you get when you subvert the idea that people should oppose totalitarianism and big, powerful states which tend tocontrol the world? I view B7 as a subversive discourse in itself. Practically all of the pop-culture heroes of today are law abiders, police officers, star fleet officers, army officers, always upholding status quo. On the other hand, B7 confronts us with a world order which is fundamentallywrong and which *has* to be opposed.
Except that Blake still sees it as a better option than an Andromedan invasion, and falls back into line as soon as he finds out about that. A bit like the way most of the Suffragettes transferred their energies to supporting the war effort (and they did get limited suffrage afterwards, so maybe Blake is hoping that the Liberator's heroic role in the battle against the Andromedans will be reported widely enough to bolster the rebels' reputation).
I think I've forgotten what point I was trying to make. Um, something like not even Blake seeing Federation as an absolute evil.
--- Natasa wrote:
I can't remember anything naughty Blake did in Bounty - apart from breaking Sarkoff's records. Could you remind me?
Actually it was Blake trashing Sarkoff's record collection that I had in mind. I know that, in the scheme of things, it's fairly minor. I know that it emphasises the difference between Blake and the Federation (People are more important than things). I know that it's for Sarkoff's own good and for the good of the people of Lindor. On the other hand, what right has Blake to invade Sarkoff's life, force him to go with him with the intent of dropping him back into political life on Lindor ? People forcing other people to do things for their own good worry me. Which brings me to your next point.
I'm all for subversion - but what do you get when you subvert the idea that people should oppose totalitarianism and big, powerful states which tend to control the world? I view B7 as a subversive discourse in itself. Practically all of the pop-culture heroes of today are law abiders, police officers, star fleet officers, army officers, always upholding status quo. On the other hand, B7 confronts us with a world order which is fundamentally wrong and which *has* to be opposed. I don't think you can compare this to Churchill - he also defended status quo against the bad guys. Even Robin Hood doesn't jeopardize the given order, since he just opposes the usurper of the throne, not the concept of the throne in itself. The idea behind B7 is much more radical. No, I don't think it was a good idea to subvert Blake and everything he stands for.
Blake ultimately is a politician. He wishes to overthrow one polity and replace it with another. I don't think that this is a bad thing. I don't think that we are ever in any doubt that Blake is a more sympathetic character than Travis. Personally I'm not in any doubt that Blake is essentially right in his opposition to the Federation. I think it is apparent that the Federation cannot be overthrown peacefully and that violence is therefore the only alternative to acquiesence in tyranny. Personally, I think that Blake was entirely justified in his decision to blow up Star One. But I think it is entirely legitimate that the issue is left open ended, that the demerits of Blake's case are put before us. That revolutionary politicians are treated with the same scepticism as the establishment. That we remember Nietzche's adage that "he who fights monsters should beware of turning into a monster and that he who stares into the abyss should remember that the abyss also stares into him".
Yes, I know, there is a danger that this scepticism can slide into a quietism which supports the status quo no matter how awful it is. I think that if Boucher was advocating this I would be concerned. But it is noticable that in Shadow Blake destroys the Federation's drug plant. In Trial the decision is made to continue the struggle, in Star One Jenna (who is quite sceptical about Blake) ends the discussion by saying "We finish what we started". And having had Blake shoot Tando in the back, Boucher makes sure we know that Tando had it coming. Boucher seems concerned, not to attack the idea of the fight against the Federation itself, rather I think he is raising questions about the methods used in revolutionary struggles and about what Orwell described as the impossibility of combining power with righteousness. I think Boucher is on Blake's side even if his support is, what else, somewhat ambiguous at times.
Stephen
____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
Stephen wrote: .I know that it > emphasises the difference between Blake and the Federation (People are more important than things>
Yes, Blake has said that people are more important than things. But Avon says something like the following several times (this quote from "Volcano"), and nobody seems to contradict him:
AVON: All right, but you haven't much time. If you are not back here in an hour I shall have to consider the safety of the Liberator as the first priority. Do you understand me?
Is it "the safety of the Liberator is first because I want it and I don't care about the rest of you?" Or is it "the safety of the Liberator is first because only it can protect the rest of us?" And why doesn't anybody argue???
--Ann
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Basart" basart@uclink.berkeley.edu To: "Blake's7" blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: [B7L] Re: People More Important (was Shadows of Blake)
Stephen wrote: .I know that it > emphasises the difference between Blake and the
Federation
(People are more important than things>
Yes, Blake has said that people are more important than things. But Avon says something like the following several times (this quote from
"Volcano"),
and nobody seems to contradict him:
AVON: All right, but you haven't much time. If you are not back here in an hour I shall have to consider the safety of the Liberator as the first priority. Do you understand me?
Is it "the safety of the Liberator is first because I want it and I don't care about the rest of you?" Or is it "the safety of the Liberator is
first
because only it can protect the rest of us?" And why doesn't anybody argue???
--Ann
They don't argue because they think it's the latter ("the safety of the Liberator is first because only it can protect the rest of us?"), which seems a reasonable viewpoint, and this no doubt suits Avon, but its more likely to be the former ("the safety of the Liberator is first because I want it and I don't care about the rest of you?"), given Avon's behaviour on several occasions (e.g. Orbit).
Best wishes, James
--- Ann wrote:
AVON: All right, but you haven't much time. If you are not back here in an hour I shall have to consider the safety of the Liberator as the first priority. Do you understand me?
Is it "the safety of the Liberator is first because I want it and I don't care about the rest of you?" Or is it "the safety of the Liberator is first because only it can protect the rest of us?"
I think it's because Avon's on board the Liberator. Actually, I don't think Avon's being unreasonable - Dayna and Tarrant could teleport up but chose not to. Vila and Avon are already aboard and the ship is a sitting target. There's a limited amount of time for them to look for Cally. So I think the second, but it does fulfil Boucher's policy of leaving Avon's actions ambiguous.
And why doesn't anybody argue???
They know that Avon will fly off in one hour no matter what they say. I haven't seen Volcano for a while so I'm not sure if Avon has told Tarrant about the parlous state of the ship, but if he has, then having trained as a combat pilot, he would appreciate the Liberators vulnerability and Avon's disinclination to sit around longer than absolutely necessary.
Stephen.
____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
Stephen said:
I know that it's for Sarkoff's own good and for the good of the people of Lindor. On the other hand, what right has Blake to invade Sarkoff's life, force him to go with him with the intent of dropping him back into political life on Lindor ? People forcing other people to do things for their own good worry me.
Actually, it's the people of Lindor I'm worried about-- we have no canonical evidence that they want Sarkoff back. As I remarked on another occasion, perhaps "Sarkoff" is Lindorian for "Bill Clinton."
-(Y)
G'Day
Do we ever discuss the book, never made into the last TV series - called Afterlife ?
I dont like the way they portray Blake as an psychopath and power freak.
I do like the book AVON, written by Paul D. - I can understand why Avon was like he was, but i still think he is a kewl dude. But in the end afterlife - he seems to give up, and then smiles.
Do blake and avon and even vila really change that much, or do we just rosie glass on for the early episodes ?
Regards tony
On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 07:24:29AM +1000, Tony Nolan wrote:
Do we ever discuss the book, never made into the last TV series - called Afterlife ?
I dunno -- when was the last round? Is it in the archives or was it too long ago?
I dont like the way they portray Blake as an psychopath and power freak.
I don't like the way they portray *any* of them.
I do like the book AVON, written by Paul D. - I can understand why Avon was like he was, but i still think he is a kewl dude. But in the end afterlife
- he seems to give up, and then smiles.
Kewl dude? Kewl dude? Avon is a "kewl dude"? (shudders and rolls eyes) Avon is *British*, man, of aristocratic bearing, with a great talent at Suffering Beautifully. Please don't describe such a work of art as a "kewl dude". (-8
Do blake and avon and even vila really change that much, or do we just rosie glass on for the early episodes ?
No, they were just badly written novels.
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Vila: Nonoperational. Avon: Well now, none of us is going to faint with amazement at that. Are we? (Blake's 7: Sand [D9])
"Kathryn" == Kathryn Andersen kat@foobox.net writes:
I dunno -- when was the last round? Is it in the archives or was it too long ago?
The archive available at http://tezcatlpoca.algonet.se/ goes back to the second day of the list's existence, with a gap of a couple of weeks in late summer 1995.
Too long ago to be in there would pretty much have to mean that it was posted to rec.arts.sf-lovers
"Calle" == Calle Dybedahl calle@lysator.liu.se writes:
The archive available at http://tezcatlpoca.algonet.se/
http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/ will work better...