Both sets of definitions are, I think, valid, but it can get confusing when you're using one and I'm using the other. :)
Actually, I've read your definitions back three times and I think in the end that they are the same thing, just differently expressed. So I withdraw any suggestions about arguing at cross-purposes :).
Hmm, but if we don't agree that those definitions are the same, *are* we arguing at cross-purposes? :)
"Truce" proposal: Let's both acknowledge that : a) speculation is a wonderful thing :), b) the series was written according to conventions which (unfortunately? perhaps...) precluded relationships between the principals...
[LOL!] OK, OK, I admit I was getting a little overexcitable, there. Truce happily accepted.
So on B7, one can have one's cake and eat it-- one can have the possibility of a relationship without the actuality.
Actually, I very much like that way of putting it.
Taking the "adopt a hypothesis and see if you can make it fit" approach I mentioned in another post, though, I don't think the lack of that sort of physicality (or even "conventionally accepted subsitutes") renders the idea untenable. Lots of explanations are possible (I, personally, favor "Avon is doing his damndest *not* to respond to Blake that way." :)). But that *is* a different mode of discourse from the argument-from-canon.
[small snip]
I hate to say this, though, but I'm a bit confused as to what your interpretation of the (hypothetical) relationship is-- a while ago I thought you were saying that Avon was pursuing Blake, but your last paragraph suggests it's the other way around. Just a request for clarification, btw, and totally a side topic...
Oh, well, to begin with, I must admit that I've kind of been playing devil's advocate here a bit, rather than trying to put forward a coherent alternative view of the relationship.
But if you want to hear *my* take on it, sure. To begin with, the version-in-Betty's-head of the relationship (my personal subcanon, if you will) includes an Avon who is deeply attracted to Blake, on an *emotional* level, with an additional attraction on a sexual level being take-it-or-leave-it possible. (Note: if you wanna know where I get the emotional thing from, go browse the archives. I hashed it out pretty thoroughly with Carol a few months ago and I'm *definitely* not going through it again! :)) I also think that Avon deeply resents his own feelings for Blake, because he knows Blake is bad news as far as his own personal prospects for survival go. So, the way I figure it, if you posit that, yes, there *is* a sexual attraction as well, Avon probably feels the same way about it as he does about the emotional aspects. If it's *there*, he's fighting it. Maybe he *is* physically attracted to Blake, and is trying not to let Blake know it, or is trying to pretend to himself that he isn't. (Blake's feelings about Avon, now, I'm still kind of trying to figure out...)
Totally speculative, of course, but I kind of like it, and it *does* point to a possible explanation for... Well, a number of the "negative evidence" things you've objected to, I think.
Nah, no hate involved. But I *still* don't see any good evidence for Blake being heterosexual. :)
And I see none for him being bisexual :).
Me either. Blake's a cypher. Or a blank screen upon which to project as you like. :)
:), and true. However, my definition of contracanonical is something that contradicts the canon in some way. So once again, if we can't have a relationship within the series canon because of the format of the series, then to write in a relationship does strike me as something of a contradiction of canon. Hope that clears this up.
Yeah. I'd still say it mixes production-reality and fictional-universe levels in a way that's not "playing the game," but then, there's no reason why you should feel compelled to play.
Having hashed out the relative status of B/A slash with regard to canon, onscreen evidence, dramatic convention, visual grammar and entertainment value, shall we go for dinner? <offers arm-- in a totally nonsexual way, of course :)>
[LOL!] You like Chinese? :)
-- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Ragan bragan@aoc.nrao.edu
I hate to say this, though, but I'm a bit confused as to what your interpretation of the (hypothetical) relationship is-- a while ago I thought you were saying that Avon was pursuing Blake, but your last paragraph suggests it's the other way around. Just a request for clarification, btw, and totally a side topic...
Oh, well, to begin with, I must admit that I've kind of been playing devil's advocate here a bit, rather than trying to put forward a coherent alternative view of the relationship.
Cheers for that :). Oh, and (leaving the sexual potential thing out, of course :) ) I do agree about a strong emotional attatchment between Avon and Blake (it's one of the things that makes the characters so fascinating for me), coupled with a sort of resentment. Interestingly, to your excellent analysis of Avon's feelings for Blake, I'd say I also see a similar thing on the reverse side-- that Blake has a strong emotional attatchment to Avon, but this is coupled with resentment at Avon's gamesmanship etc.
Nah, no hate involved. But I *still* don't see any good evidence for Blake being heterosexual. :)
And I see none for him being bisexual :).
Me either. Blake's a cypher. Or a blank screen upon which to project as you like. :)
Truce! There's a suggestion of the attraction to Jenna, of course, but, alas, because of the nature of the show, it always has to remain totally ambiguous...:)
:), and true. However, my definition of contracanonical is something
that
contradicts the canon in some way. So once again, if we can't have a relationship within the series canon because of the format of the
series,
then to write in a relationship does strike me as something of a contradiction of canon. Hope that clears this up.
Yeah. I'd still say it mixes production-reality and fictional-universe levels in a way that's not "playing the game," but then, there's no reason why you should feel compelled to play.
Yes-- although I still feel compelled to admit that the fictional universe is based on the production reality, and the production reality is affected by the fictional universe and so separating the two is pretty much impossible... :).
Having hashed out the relative status of B/A slash with regard to canon, onscreen evidence, dramatic convention, visual
grammar
and entertainment value, shall we go for dinner? <offers arm-- in a
totally
nonsexual way, of course :)>
[LOL!] You like Chinese? :)
Absolutely. I know a little restaurant just off the Great Wall... :)
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Hmm, I realized afterwards that somehow the disclaimer and attribution fell off my last post. I am now living in fear of being sued by a little old lady who's been scalded from accidentally dropping my post in her lap. :)
Anyway, there's no actual slash at all in this one...
Fiona Moore wrote:
Interestingly, to your excellent analysis of Avon's feelings for Blake, I'd say I also see a similar thing on the reverse side-- that Blake has a strong emotional attatchment to Avon, but this is coupled with resentment at Avon's gamesmanship etc.
Yes, I'm inclined to think this is true, as well. I do see a definite appreciation, even friendship, for Avon on Blake's part, combined with a strong and entirely understandable streak of irritation. (But I still don't feel like I can get into Blake's head nearly as well as Avon's.)
Yes-- although I still feel compelled to admit that the fictional universe is based on the production reality, and the production reality is affected by the fictional universe and so separating the two is pretty much impossible... :).
But fun to attempt. :)
[LOL!] You like Chinese? :)
Absolutely. I know a little restaurant just off the Great Wall... :)
Great! I'll hop in my TARDIS and meet you there last week!
-
Betty Ragan -
Betty Ragan -
Fiona Moore