Julia wrote:
Shane Little writes:
This decision of yours is interesting. From the sound of it, you're basically ghettoising _all_ stories about gay relationships into slash zines, and I would like to ask you why you do this. There were gay characters in the programme, so it can't be out of respect for the
canon;
since you yourself are involved in a same-sex relationship, it can't be
out
of a belief that all fiction involving gays should be kept on the
X-rated
shelf. Apparently it's just down to sales, and again I'd like more
evidence
that it _would_ harm sales-- the people who wouldn't buy the zine might
be
compensated for by the Jane Carnalls of the world: the people who don't object to fiction about gays, but do object to explicit sex.
Julia Jones writes:
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
You've been complaining that straight women are writing about gay men without the least idea of what it's like to be a gay man. Now you're writing about zine editors without displaying any evidence that you have the least idea what it's like to be a zine editor.
I was involved in the production of a number of Doctor Who zines in the mid 80's and early to mid nineties, so I have quite a bit of experience. I don't make comments about things I know nothing about, and if you've been reading my posts, then you should know that, Julia :-).
Anthology zine editing is a hobby. It's an expensive hobby. Sales *are* important, because the more copies you can sell, the more chance you have of covering a reasonable proportion of the costs involved in putting a zine together. There are fixed costs involved in doing a zine, as well as the per-copy costs, and they can be pretty high for an anthology zine. Profits? Forget them.
That wasn't the case with the zines I was involved with; in fact it was impossible *not* to make a profit, which was a bit of a problem because fanzines by their nature have to be non-profit making, or else you are infringing copyright.
at least in this fandom.
I'm sure that is your experience, but Ashton Press have their fingers in many fandoms, not just B7. Ever wondered why? Especially when you consider that Annie or Leah have repeatedly failed to demonstrate any real interest whatsoever in what B7 was about, and in fact have demonstrated a clear dislike for some of the main actors involved. Needs investigation, I feel.
In the unlikely event that someone actually covers *all* the costs, and then some, the pay per hour rate is going to make third world wages look munificent. There are easier ways of making money.
That's your experience, but again if Annie and Leah have shown little interest in B7, then what is motivating them?
The experience of editors down the years is that there *are* objections, and resulting loss of sales, to mixed zines. From both camps. It's not just the loss of sales, either, it's having to deal with the bitching from people who think that the merest hint that two men (or two women) could have a sexual interest in each other turns it into a filthy pornographic rag; and at the other extreme, the people bitching about having to pay for this boring gen stuff when all they want is the action. Or the ones who want only slash and gen, none of that horrid het (no, I am not exaggerating, I've had the dealer's table experience of people wanting me to tell them how much space was wasted on het before they decided to buy a zine).
But then that's the price you pay when dealing with a controversial subject. I know that compromises have to be made, but the end result is still ghettoisation.
Personally, I'm somewhat bemused by the belief that amateur gynaecology and explicit violence are just fine in a genzine but a passing mention of homosexuality is slash and only to be sold to the over-eighteens, but sticking to that market division is one way for an editor to reduce her stress level.
Unfortunately, you also compromise yourself. Another problem which I've experienced in my involvement with zine producing, and I'm sure you have also, is that most fanfic is very badly written :-). Not good when dealing with a controversial subject like sexual politics.
Shane
"I'm going to bed, father" -- Dayna
Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015
In message IOOEAFEPJGOJNAAA@angelfire.com, Shane Little littles@angelfire.com writes
I was involved in the production of a number of Doctor Who zines in the mid 80's and early to mid nineties, so I have quite a bit of experience. I don't make comments about things I know nothing about, and if you've been reading my posts, then you should know that, Julia :-).
<grins evilly> Right, we've got him, he's publicly admitted to editing experience.
Shane, how would you like to edit a Blake's 7 anthology zine? Yes, I'm perfectly serious and not just pulling your leg, the good Citizens will confirm that. Given the current burnout rate, another editor who believes in editing as well as publishing would not go amiss. Nor would another take on zine format. I will admit to personal interest in this - I think I might like a B7 zine edited to your tastes, going by what you've been saying.
There is something wrong with the world. I am discussing sherbet fountains on FC, and slash and zine editing on the Lyst.
Julia Jones julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk wrote:
In message IOOEAFEPJGOJNAAA@angelfire.com, Shane Little littles@angelfire.com writes
I was involved in the production of a number of Doctor Who zines in the mid 80's and early to mid nineties, so I have quite a bit of experience. I don't make comments about things I know nothing about, and if you've been reading my posts, then you should know that, Julia :-).
<grins evilly> Right, we've got him, he's publicly admitted to editing experience.
Shane, how would you like to edit a Blake's 7 anthology zine? Yes, I'm perfectly serious and not just pulling your leg, the good Citizens will confirm that. Given the current burnout rate, another editor who believes in editing as well as publishing would not go amiss. Nor would another take on zine format. I will admit to personal interest in this - I think I might like a B7 zine edited to your tastes, going by what you've been saying.
There is something wrong with the world. I am discussing sherbet fountains on FC, and slash and zine editing on the Lyst. -- Julia Jones
I have several stories if anyone is interested (gen)
Jacqui __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/
From: Shane Little littles@angelfire.com
That wasn't the case with the zines I was involved with; in fact it was impossible *not* to make a profit, which was a bit of a problem because fanzines by their nature have to be non-profit making, or else you are infringing copyright.
Fanzines infringe copyright anyway. Make a profit on them and you're inviting the attention of the Inland Revenue.
I think I was about twenty quid down by the time I flogged the last copy of Pressure Point (before Judith did her own reprint), a loss I can comfortably afford. Making a profit I consider grossly unethical. If a small profit goes into subsidising production of further zines, then fair enough. Anyone who makes a living wage out of them should be shot and dumped in a ditch to rot.
Neil
On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 07:19:55PM +0000, Shane Little wrote:
Julia wrote:
Anthology zine editing is a hobby. It's an expensive hobby. Sales *are* important, because the more copies you can sell, the more chance you have of covering a reasonable proportion of the costs involved in putting a zine together. There are fixed costs involved in doing a zine, as well as the per-copy costs, and they can be pretty high for an anthology zine. Profits? Forget them.
That wasn't the case with the zines I was involved with; in fact it was impossible *not* to make a profit, which was a bit of a problem because fanzines by their nature have to be non-profit making, or else you are infringing copyright.
Really? I'm amazed. What a lucky fellow! That's not the experience I've had in either editing a zine myself (since 1995) or talking to fellow editors.
(And, technically speaking, it's still infringing copyright, but it makes it a lot less likely that one will be sued.)
at least in this fandom.
I'm sure that is your experience, but Ashton Press have their fingers in many fandoms, not just B7. Ever wondered why? Especially when you consider that Annie or Leah have repeatedly failed to demonstrate any real interest whatsoever in what B7 was about, and in fact have demonstrated a clear dislike for some of the main actors involved. Needs investigation, I feel.
As Carol said, go and make your investigation, and *then* make your statements. It does not put you in a good light to make such accusations and insinuations without evidence.
Why is Ashton Press into many fandoms? Because they like them. It's perfectly legitimate to have lots of interests -- take me, for example! The zine I edit is a mixed Media zine, not a B7 zine. Why? Because I'm interested in far too many things to just restrict myself to only one fandom when I'm editing. (Marketingwise, probably not a good decision, because people do seem to prefer one-fandom zines to mixed ones.)
Demonstrate no real interest in what B7 was about? Well, they'd probably disagree with you on "what B7 is about" anyway. It may simply be that they are still in B7 fandom from inertia, because their friends are here, and though they've lost a great deal of interest in things that used to interest them about B7, they still have enough interest to stay. What it "is about" to them isn't the same as what it "is about" to you... and neither party has the right to tell the other what B7 fandom *ought* to be about to the other person. So, for example, it isn't legitimate for Annie to say that *fandom* has got nothing to do with the actors -- only that *her own preferred experience of fandom* has nothing to do with the actors. Likewise, someone else can't say that *fandom* isn't about meeting your fannish friends at cons -- just that it isn't that to *that person*.
Dislike some of the main actors involved? That goes back a very long way, and it probably isn't my place to discuss it, seeing as I was one of those on the opposite side of the schism than Ms. Wortham and Ms. Rosenthal. Asking *them* why they dislike certain actors isn't going to get you a calm, objective response, and asking anyone *else* is doomed to be mere speculation.
The experience of editors down the years is that there *are* objections, and resulting loss of sales, to mixed zines. From both camps. It's not just the loss of sales, either, it's having to deal with the bitching from people who think that the merest hint that two men (or two women) could have a sexual interest in each other turns it into a filthy pornographic rag; and at the other extreme, the people bitching about having to pay for this boring gen stuff when all they want is the action. Or the ones who want only slash and gen, none of that horrid het (no, I am not exaggerating, I've had the dealer's table experience of people wanting me to tell them how much space was wasted on het before they decided to buy a zine).
But then that's the price you pay when dealing with a controversial subject. I know that compromises have to be made, but the end result is still ghettoisation.
<sarcasm>Nasty evil editors, how dare they be considerate to the desires of their audience! Never! They should shove their sexual politics down people's throats, in the name of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity! </sarcasm>
It shouldn't surprise you that I'm one of the ones who won't buy a mixed gen and slash zine. Sorry, Tavia, I'm sure there are good stories there, but there are other stories that I Will Not Read, so I'm not going to buy the zine. There are people who won't buy my zine either (shrug) (I even had someone come up to me at a con once, ask me if there was Doctor Who in the zine, and I said no, and he walked off without even bothering to look at the zine.)
Personally, I'm somewhat bemused by the belief that amateur gynaecology and explicit violence are just fine in a genzine but a passing mention of homosexuality is slash and only to be sold to the over-eighteens, but sticking to that market division is one way for an editor to reduce her stress level.
Unfortunately, you also compromise yourself. Another problem which I've experienced in my involvement with zine producing, and I'm sure you have also, is that most fanfic is very badly written :-). Not good when dealing with a controversial subject like sexual politics.
Yes, Sturgeon's Law applies to fanfic -- that's why editors edit, and why editors reject. I have been fortunate in that the quality of submissions to Refractions has been very high, but that needn't have been the case.
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "There won't be anything left of us to detect unless we match velocity and course now." -- Dayna Mellanby (Blake's 7: Stardrive [D4])
-
jacquispeel＠netscape.net -
Julia Jones -
Kathryn Andersen -
Neil Faulkner -
Shane Little