Cheryl wrote in response to me:
I would also like to point out that my objections were never based on the written material so much, only with it being interspersed with general fiction.
Surely this depends on the overall age statement on the zine. The mixing of gen with adult does not appear inherently wrong, merely the purveying of such to children.
I also believe (and will remain in this belief) that to use the likeness of any individual in any area, without their actual consent is a gross distortion of civil liberties and these are my main points of contention.
In terms of pictures, I don't personally see an awful lot of difference between, say, (1) someone putting a framegrab of Avon on their desktop; (2) someone using the framegrab to draw a likeness of Avon which they put on their wall; (3) someone passing said likeness of Avon round their circle of friends; and (4) someone selling 50 copies (I should be so lucky!!) of a non-profit-making fanzine containing said likeness of Avon.
In all cases the picture is of Avon, not of the actor. In no case is Mr Darrow harmed by the picture. In no case is any money made out of the situation. In legal terms, I would guess all are technically illegal. In fact, I believe that fanzines in general contravene (UK) copyright law merely by using the character names/situation.
I'm actually on your side in the severely violent storyline issue, however; I must reiterate that my concerns re: porn/slash lean heavily towards the fact that it can be found amongst general stories in (I imagine) all of fandoms stories
I've only read significant amounts of B7 fanfiction so I can't comment on other fandoms.
and therefore a sufficient diet of this sort of material could warp the general behavioural patterns of some youngsters (extreme cases only) I would like to add, that this also applies with a steady diet of violence goes without saying...therefore; I believe that these should be placed in AO categories as well. (it all comes down to the levels involved - a line has to be drawn as to what is considered possibly influential material and what is not and then separate the two.)
I can hardly disagree with a statement this broad! Yes, certainly a *steady diet* of slash, or violence, or television, or penguins, or pretty much anything really, is unlikely to exert a positive influence on child development. Whether there's any actual harm probably depends more on the child and his/her background than on the material.
I personally would guess that material of an explicit sexual nature would be less likely to have a negative effect than explicitly violent material. Partly I suppose on grounds of applicability; there are bullies among every almost every age-group, but sexual activities require a certain degree of physical maturity. Partly also on grounds that violence is obvious and eye-catching, while erotic material -- if you don't know what it's depicting -- isn't really. I would also assert that overprotectiveness of children is non-ideal. They are, after all, going to have to live in this world, with all its imperfections...
Okay, I have read a number of stories but I would say nowhere near as much as maybe yourself and others on this list
Actually I'm a relative newbie here...
- so I will take it as read that some
stories have a feel about them that sex should exist but it doesn't - and I agree, this could make for some frustrating reading...but wouldn't this be the fault of the author? they have instigated a moment which promises something but does not deliver...I would say with these stories, the author should whack the sex in and make it adult reading, however; if the author does not wish to do this, then no amount of mixing the stories in a single zine is going to change this.
It's not so much promises that don't deliver, as whole stories that read as if the characters and the plotline were concocted by Disney.
All I can say on quality is, in my personal experience of zine publishing (viz: one to date), I was lucky enough to be submitted a heck of a lot of stories of very high quality rather quickly for the premise of a 'mixed, but no erotica' zine despite being hitherto unknown as a zine publisher or even a B7 fan. I made the deduction that writers at least rather liked the idea. Whether there's any readership to speak of is another matter .... ask me in a few more months!
I have read a number of slash stories now, well no, in truth I have actually only read a few but I have attempted to read a lot more, a fair % of these stories are simply about the sex, (for me)not exactly what I would call riveting reading...
You could try the stories Betty recently recommended to Fiona, or for that matter those I recommended for the same purpose.
I don't think Avon was sent to Cygnus Alpha for any crime other than an attempt to defraud the Federation's banking system...that he would and does kill in the time that follows is a difficult way to categorise him as they all kill in the act of fighting the rebellion - season four is another point altogether :-)
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Tavia wrote:
Cheryl wrote in response to me:
I also believe (and will remain in this belief) that to use the likeness of any individual in any area, without their actual consent is a gross distortion of civil liberties and these are my main points of contention.
In terms of pictures, I don't personally see an awful lot of difference between, say, (1) someone putting a framegrab of Avon on their desktop; (2) someone using the framegrab to draw a likeness of Avon which they put on their wall; (3) someone passing said likeness of Avon round their circle of friends; and (4) someone selling 50 copies (I should be so lucky!!) of a non-profit-making fanzine containing said likeness of Avon.
In all cases the picture is of Avon, not of the actor. In no case is Mr Darrow harmed by the picture. In no case is any money made out of the situation. In legal terms, I would guess all are technically illegal. In fact, I believe that fanzines in general contravene (UK) copyright law merely by using the character names/situation.
I'm not at all comfortable with this argument. I don't think I would be terribly happy if I found that people were selling drawings depicting me in questionable circumstances (unlikely as that may be). If those people tried to tell me that it was OK because they weren't pictures of me at all, but of Caliban, or Macbeth, or Panfilo, I don't think it would cut much ice.
Just because you get up on a stage, or in front of a camera, doesn't mean you sign away your rights as a private human being. Duplicating a framegrab is simply making an unauthorised copy of a performance: unlawful, but in this context hardly a great crime. Using that likeness to create pictures of that person doing a performance which they would most likely be unwilling to do is overstepping the mark.
If someone had done a drawing of me playing Caliban, I wouldn't mind: indeed I'd probably be terribly flattered that someone thought it worth making such a picture. If I'd found people trading in pictures of me fellating Gary Mooney, I'd be upset and offended. A conversation with one of the vendors, in which they insisted that I had nothing to be annoyed about because it wasn't me and Gary at all, it was Caliban and Stephano, would most likely have ended with one of us in hospital and the other in prison.
If particular perfomers are cool about their likeness being used any old way, fair enough. That's their choice. Trying to sidestep the moral issue by invoking this metaphysical distinction between performer and character really doesn't work, though.
I'm not sure exactly what sorts of fan art you're thinking of, Tavia, and I'm not trying to beat you up about your views. However, I do think there's a moral line which some fans -- not necessarily yourself -- ignore too casually.
Iain
Tavia wrote:
All I can say on quality is, in my personal experience of zine publishing (viz: one to date), I was lucky enough to be submitted a heck of a lot of stories of very high quality rather quickly for the premise of a 'mixed, but no erotica' zine despite being hitherto unknown as a zine publisher or even a B7 fan. I made the deduction that writers at least rather liked the idea.
Which, judging from the contents of the zine (I'm in the middle of reading it now, and am *very* impressed by the overall high quality -- there's some *darned* good stuff in there!) is very understandable. IMO, there are quite a number of stories in "ttba" that, while totally unacceptable for a "gen" zine are definitely not calculated to appeal to those specifically looking for erotica. Which can create quite a dilemma, I think, for a writer who's looking to get her story out to the appropriate target audience.
The "ghettoization" of slash does bother me a little bit, actually, because it lumps a drama- or action- based story in which it's mentioned in passing that Avon is sexually interested in Blake, say, in with a highly explicit piece of PWP erotica. There is certainly a large overlap in audience for the two, but still, there are likely to be readers who would enjoy the former without wanting to touch the latter with a ten-foot pole, and probably those who are interested in the later but are turned off (uh, so to speak) by the former.
You could try the stories Betty recently recommended to Fiona, or for that matter those I recommended for the same purpose.
Although I would be very quick to point out that several of the stories I recommended are quite explicit in nature, and probably most of them involve really *dysfunctional* sexual relationships...
Responding to Cheryl & Tavia:
Tavia:
Surely this depends on the overall age statement on the zine. The mixing
of
gen with adult does not appear inherently wrong, merely the purveying of such to children.
It's always difficult to characterize the degree of violence or sexual suggestiveness in a story, so I would agree that as long as age statements are used where necessary, it is up to the adult reader to decide what s/he finds offensive. If there is any material unsuitable for children in a publication, it should not be sold to children, and there should be a clear warning for parents supervising their childrens' reading material.
In terms of pictures, I don't personally see an awful lot of difference between, say, (1) someone putting a framegrab of Avon on their desktop;
(2)
someone using the framegrab to draw a likeness of Avon which they put on their wall; (3) someone passing said likeness of Avon round their circle
of
friends; and (4) someone selling 50 copies (I should be so lucky!!) of a non-profit-making fanzine containing said likeness of Avon.
In all cases the picture is of Avon, not of the actor. In no case is Mr Darrow harmed by the picture.
A person would have to be VERY kindly indeed to forego a hobby she enjoys to avert embarrassment to persons who are almost certain never to see the material. Tavia:
In no case is any money made out of the situation. In legal terms, I would guess all are technically illegal. In fact, I believe that fanzines in general contravene (UK) copyright law merely by using the character names/situation.
Yeah--control of derivative works is an important part of the copyright holder's "bundle of rights."
Cheryl:
and therefore a sufficient diet of this sort of material could warp the general behavioural patterns of some youngsters (extreme cases only) I would like to add, that this also applies with a steady diet of violence goes without saying...therefore; I believe that these should be placed in AO categories as well. (it all comes down to the levels involved - a line has to be drawn as to what is considered possibly influential material and what is not and then separate the two.)
RL serial killers have been "inspired" by materials that are deemed quite innocuous by those who are not severely mentally ill. Some of the worst institutional violence occurs and has occurred in quite puritanical societies where all forms of media (much less violence and pornography) are suppressed.
Tavia:
I personally would guess that material of an explicit sexual nature would be less likely to have a negative effect than explicitly violent material. Partly I suppose on grounds of applicability; there are bullies among
every
almost every age-group, but sexual activities require a certain degree of physical maturity. Partly also on grounds that violence is obvious and eye-catching, while erotic material -- if you don't know what it's depicting -- isn't really. I would also assert that overprotectiveness of children is non-ideal. They are, after all, going to have to live in this world, with all its imperfections...
I'm not a parent either, but if I were, I would expect my children to grow up to have erotic lives, whereas I would be greatly saddened if they were placed in any situation where they were forced to be violent.
Cheryl:
- so I will take it as read that some
stories have a feel about them that sex should exist but it doesn't - and I agree, this could make for some frustrating reading...but wouldn't this be the fault of the author? they have instigated a moment which promises something but does not deliver...I would say with these stories, the author should whack the sex in and make it adult reading, however; if the author does not wish to do this, then no amount of mixing the stories in a single zine is going to change this.
As I said in an off-list post to a friend, there are many continua operating here. Whether a story is any good or not is a separate question from whether or not it contains explicit sex. Some stories can be improved by increasing the level of sexual explicitness, some by decreasing it.
Cheryl:
I have read a number of slash stories now, well no, in truth I have actually only read a few but I have attempted to read a lot more, a fair % of these stories are simply about the sex, (for me)not exactly what I would call riveting reading...
Personally, I'd always rather read a mediocre slash (or hetsmut) story than an equally mediocre gen story, at least the first one is potentially arousing.
-(Y)
-
Betty Ragan -
Dana Shilling -
Iain Coleman -
Tavia