huh wrote:
I'd be entirely surprised if any of the main actors failed to know slash existed- and of course slash has been covered in the press as well.
Leaving aside that there's a difference between knowing something exists and having it brought to your attention, we don't _know_ if they know that slash exists. We know two of the main actors do-- their names have been mentioned on this lyst in connection with this fact (also that neither of them are happy about it, particularly the artwork). As for the others, well, how do we know that they know?
As I said, they don't need to. Journalists need to sell papers, and so
regardless of whether or not the site does show anything factual, they'll write it up.
What I was responding to was your statement that there were people who were unable to tell the difference.
Well, there are, and hopefully they are a minority. But you still haven't answered my other statement, about the journalists, who as I said don't have to be credulous-- they will deliberately misinterpret stuff if they think it will get them a good story.
If a journalist did find a fan site with slash art, chances are the
headline
would read NUDE PICTURES OF [ACTOR X] SHOCKER, and the fact that these
were
faked up or sketched will be buried somewhere in the fine print. This
_did_
actually happen at least once, with Doctor Who and the Sun newspaper.
It happens all the time- and they don't need to go to a con or look for slash art sites to do it.
My point exactly. Now add slash art sites to the mix and what do you get? It's treading on thin ice, is what it is.
But again, how many gullible people are unaware that photos can be faked and that sensationalist headlines are just that. Even people who read the tabloids know they are trash- they just enjoy reading them.
Oh, we know this for a fact, do we? Never underestimate the gullibility of the public or the power of the press (Or the fact that there's tabloids and tabloids. The National Inquirer may be visibly rubbish, but something like the Sun or the Mail people do read and in many cases believe). How many times have you read an article in _any_ paper, and because you have inside knowledge of what's being written about, you have been able to say "Oh, they've got that totally wrong"-- but then read an article on the next page about an issue which you know nothing about, and not been able to tell whether it was a lie or the truth? There are more than a few people out there who are falsely convinced that Britain is about to be overrun by asylum-seekers simply because the Daily Express says so.
Don't you think it's just a tiny bit fascist to say that someone is "too
stupid to live"?
Not at all. Do you read the Darwin Awards? People who aren't able to
sort
things intelligently get to wind up in the newspapers strangely dead or maimed. This is of course a great boon to the gene pool if they make
their
fatal mistake before reproducing.
And I'm sure that's a great consolation to their friends and relatives. But. Supposing you have a university professor with multiple degrees, awards and qualifications. He goes for a walk in a field; a storm comes up and he carelessly takes shelter under a tree and is struck by lightening. Is he too stupid to live? Is his removal from the gene pool a great boon? This sort of social darwinist thinking has been tried before, you know.
And what I'm saying is, there doesn't have to be confusion as to the
actors being involved in fan art for a fan, a spouse or, worst of all, a journalist, to assume that the actors give their tacit approval to this
sort
of thing.
So naturally actors give tacit approval for faked sex photos, drug
photos,
fabrication of alien sex slaves or whatever as well.
Stranger things have happened. What about the case of Tommy Lee and Pamela Anderson and the allegedly "unauthorised" footage (which it turned out they'd released themselves)?
reasonable. Should it be necessary prominent persons do in fact
challenge
all of the above in courts and get damages.
Do you know how long, how costly and how destructive a libel case can be, especially in Great Britain? It's a bit much to expect of an actor who spends half his time working a second job.
They do not feel that most of
the time it is necessary however as they rightly assume most people aren't confused about what "weird" fans might be dreaming and acting upon and what the prominent person is up to.
Firstly, how do you know what's in the mind of the actors? Secondly, need I point out that you're playing straight into the stereotype here of the mad fan who can't tell reality from fiction or right from wrong. We're talking here about perfectly intelligent and sane people, who despite this can't seem to realise that actors are also human beings.
(the ones that are smart enough to survive)
There's that social darwinist thing again.
will figure out that this is in fact something my own
brain dreamed up and that Reagan didn't approve nor pose for said stories. I give people a little more credit and assume that they know actors or prominent persons do not give tacit approval for all sorts of things.
Again, there's a big difference between the ex-President of the United States and a jobbing actor from Luton. But what you seem to be saying here is "Oh, I know the actors don't approve, and I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway." That's terribly kind and courteous of you.
I have yet to hear of actors deciding they want nothing to do with fans based on the existence of adult artwork.
Didn't somebody mention a big bust-up over it about ten years back?
The main actors regularly attend cons knowing that such things exist. Most purveyors of such merchandise don't display it in an obvious way to bring it to their attention.
Which is true, but once again, the Internet makes the whole question of whether or not something is prominently displayed irrelevant-- see what Mistral said about the Buffy the Vampire Slayer mailing list. As for actors not attending conventions-- this doesn't change the fact that we're dependent on their goodwill for con appearances. For the moment, they're willing to show a good deal of restraint and patience, but we know that at least two of them have expressed reservations about the artwork even in its current restricted circulation. If more and more of it gets about, or it becomes more available, they might well change their minds.
Not everybody does even so little, as I'm sure you know. We've all heard
stories, I'm sure, about people who actually send slash art to actors to sign.
And the actors can trash it or right a sharp letter protesting and not signing or whatever they think is appropriate.
But why should they have to do this at all? Plus it makes the rest of us look bad to them.
Considering that actors are frequently considered sex objects I don't see that B7 actors have any special rights in this area.
No, you're right. Courtesy should be extended to actors _in general_.
Considering that many people who aren't prominent persons are seen only as a sex object, I can't get any more upset about actors than anyone else.
It's a question of choice. If an actor chooses to appear nude, or in a sex scene, or whatever, that's his choice, and he goes into that role knowing how he is going to be seen by the audience. However, fan art is different-- the actor doesn't know/approve of its existence, and was never asked whether he wanted there to be material out there showing him in this way-- and even if he protests, usually he is ignored.
At least the sex object in fan art is entirely fictional.
But using the likeness of a real person.
And we should go on allowing this? Just because everybody else is
selfish
it doesn't mean _you_ should be selfish too.
But I can be selfish if I want to, same as anyone. I don't need to measure up to anyone else's standards or morals.
"Noe man is an Iland, complete in himself..." If you're going to live in a community, you can't live totally selfishly, ignoring the needs and wishes of other people. If when other people get upset by your behaviour, you just say "I'm all right Jack, I don't care about you," that's not going to go over too well.
I get a wee bit nervous when someone else starts worrying about allowing this or that.
You just stated above that all stupid people don't deserve to live. Surely that amounts to not allowing other people to be stupid?
I happen to be a
vegetarian human rights activist but aside from trying to point out the problems of objectifying persons or groups I pretty much am a firm
believer
of not letting others dictate their own worldview onto others.
But you yourself have been saying in these last few posts that if you want to buy slash art you don't care that this might impinge on other people's enjoyment of fandom. Isn't that dictating your own worldview onto other people?
Not so sure about that. Leaving aside the cases of slash art going out
using actors' real names and not the characters', the separation between
an
actors' image and that of a character is a very slim one indeed.
But this is not a "slash art" phenomenon. I see no reason to single out "adult" art , its creators and consumers . The persons who are unable to separate an actor from a role will have that difficulty whether they draw pictures, dress up as a character and act weirdly or make harrassing phone calls. I don't see that this small group of individuals implies that
most
people of average intelligence can't sort out the fact that actors are
not
the characters they portray and that art is created out of someone's head and that it doesn't require the tacit consent of the person portrayed or their actual presence.
Again, this boils down to actors saying that they don't want their images exploited in this way, and an unfortunate minority of fans saying that they don't give a damn what the actors want, it gives them pleasure and so they're going to do it.
As it is, though, it's pretty easy to draw a visual link between the actor and the character, and to confuse the two.
Amazingly enough, I don't know anyone who does this.
I think you do. If I were to show you a picture of Paul Darrow in costume as Avon and said "That's Avon, isn't it?" you would say yes. If I were to show you a picture of my sister dressed as Avon and say to you "That's Avon, isn't it?" You would say "No it isn't, that's a picture of your sister in an Avon costume." If the actor's image weren't linked to the character, then it would be just as easy for my sister to be seen as Avon as for Paul Darrow.
I don't really feel an obligation to censor something because they aren't capable of understanding it.
This has nothing to do with censorship, and everything to do with showing restraint and courtesy for others.
Might as well get rid of plays and television altogether, since obviously there are these people who can't figure it out and attack actors in pubs.
That's attacking the wrong part of the problem. A more sensible solution is to make it unacceptable for people to attack actors in pubs.
Not true. Actors' families, their friends, their co-workers,
journalists,
agents... also, in the Internet age, anti-slash fans who innocently type "[Actor X] pictures" into a search engine and click on the first site they see...
I maintain it is a little more difficult to do this than one thinks.
I think Mistral has answered this one much better than I could.
and not many of them feature art. How strange is it to type in
Servalan
and pull up a picture of one of the male fans dressed up like her
(usually
rather fetchingly, I might add)? Surely that might offend the actress or
her
friends or family or be interpretted as tacit approval?
Beside the point. We know that male fans do dress up in B7 drag; we also know that the actors know about this and that none, to my knowledge, have complained about this. They have judged costume competitions and been interviewed by male fans in B7 drag (hi David-- very nice you looked too!). We also know, however, that of the actors who have said that they know about slash art, none of them have approved of it. So there's a bit of a difference.
A lot of fan behavior is itself invasive and odd and objectifying.
But there is a matter of degree here. It may be invasive to ask for an autograph, but there's a difference in the degree of invasiveness between asking for an autograph, following the actor into the gents' to ask for an autograph, and drawing a picture of him in flagrante delicto. And also, different actors have different tolerance levels even to simple things like autograph seeking-- some like it, others get upset and rude when recognised in the street.
Most of the posters who posted in reply to Shane's e-mail have expressed thoughts in a far more enlightening way than I care to. I am not interested in arguing the morality of adult artwork .
You could have fooled me.
the fact that it is there in the zine and unchallenged _would_ suggest
to> > readers that Actor X had approved or consented to their presence there.
Every time I read it all I can think of is that it's time to bring on the Clorox if the gene pool has degenerated to the point that more than a
tiny,
naive or unintelligent portion of the population would believe this.
Oh yes. As you suggest, let's kill them all! Bring on the gas ovens!
When I started reading zines last year it never occurred to me to think that the actors had any input into the stories or that they approved or consented.
Again, you're acknowledging that they wouldn't approve or like it.
Websites in most fandoms actually say something like
copyright belongs to such and such and I'm just taking these characters
out
and playing with them.
Ironic, this statement of yours. Right before it in my mailbox there's a post from Carol and Gordon warning about Tripod taking down fan sites regardless of content. Now, why would they do this? The fact that this is an across-the-board removal suggests that they're concerned about breaches of copyright and they don't want to be sued. We in B7 fandom have been very lucky in that the BBC, the Nation estate and the actors are aware of fan activities and have allowed them to continue without challenge. But if we push this tolerance too far, they could quite easily take us out without any problem. And no matter how much you protest about freedom of speech and censorship, you won't have any say in it. At all.
Shane
"The host stirs..." --Zil
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Shane Little