<< Hi Fiona << I also found it kind of insulting when, after constructing a carefully thought-out argument with examples from the episode (and I'd watched it specially for that purpose), some people came on to say "Oh, that's just your *opinion,*" which made me wonder why I'd bothered to find all those supporting examples. >>
Yes, some responses were just "that's just your opinion." But I also read responses which explained WHY they didn't see the examples the way you do. It sounds like what's bothering you is that you didn't change anyone's opinion. I'm not sure what you're expecting.
FWIW, I *did* understand your arguement from your point of view. It's just not *my* point of view...so I don't agree. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong.
I see "Deliverance" as a defining episode for Avon. An episode that brought one more dimension to his character. This is over-simplifying, but I see a "kinder, gentler" Avon here. Which is way out of character for what we've seen up to this point. Just as "Aftermath" showed us that Avon does have some social manners and that he can be a gracious guest, "Deliverance" implies he does actually have some good instincts. He just doesn't pay attention to them very often. :)
But in this case, I felt he was genuinely touched by Meegat's pathetic, selfless devotion to the prophecy and by her genuine innosence. From what we've seen of Avon up to this point his response to her should have been, "I am not your Lord and I see no reason why we should involve ourselves in your problems." But, as we saw, that wasn't his reaction. He felt a kind of "sympathy" for Meegat and helped her.
I won't break down and analyze every line of dialogue from Avon to Meegat because (for me) it all blends to the same conclusion.
I'm not saying Avon suddenly became a nice guy after this ep. Lord knows that didn't happen. But it did happen in this ep (towards Meegat, anyway) and I saw nothing sexist about it. But I try not to look at B7 from a 20th century (or 21st century) western civilization point of view. From my interpretation of the 52 eps, I have created my view of the B7 universe and I watch the show from that perspective.
<< Fiona wrote: << We got disagreed with and debated, true, but sometimes the disagreeing got more than a little heated. >>
In response to this, I'm going to repost a comment I made earlier.
It should be pointed out that the Deliverance thread was a lively, interesting, and congenial debate (in fact, one of the best we've had in some time). It wasn't til posts became insulting (beginning with the "Wolf at your door" message) that there began to be a certain amount of resentment at the insistence that if we couldn't see sexism in "Deliverance" we must be stupid or uninformed.
Also, seeing a list member write that another list member's posts make them sick is extremely disheartening.
Courtney Hoping I didn't offend anyone It is not my intention
--- Caveatemptor1@aol.com wrote: > << Hi Fiona
<< I also found it kind of insulting when, after constructing a carefully thought-out argument with examples from the episode (and I'd watched it specially for that purpose), some people came on to say "Oh, that's just your *opinion,*" which made me wonder why I'd bothered to find all those supporting examples. >>
Yes, some responses were just "that's just your opinion." But I also read responses which explained WHY they didn't see the examples the way you do.
I wasn't including those in my above statement. A lot of the anti-responses were intelligent and thoughtful. It's just that *one or two* people responded in a way that I felt belittled all the effort I'd put into the post. Once again, that's *one or two.* I don't mean everyone who took up a position opposite to mine, many of whom I respect.
It sounds like what's bothering you is that you didn't change anyone's opinion.
Ah, but I did :)! And some of the anti-faction, in their turn, made me reconsider aspects of my own argument...
FWIW, I *did* understand your arguement from your
point of view. It's just not *my* point of view...so I don't agree. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong.
And nobody is saying that at all, not even in the statement I initially made. Which, IIRC (and since I have the post in my sent-items folder, I do) did not refer to the rightness or wrongness of anyone's opinion, just on the insultingness or uninsultingness of *some* responses on the Deliverance thread.
<Deliverance analysis snipped>
As you're probably aware, I don't agree with very much of your analysis of Deliverance. But since you've read my earlier argument, there's no point in restating my post with evidence. We'll just have to agree to disagree :).
. But I try not to
look at B7 from a 20th century (or 21st century) western civilization point of view. From my interpretation of the 52 eps, I have created my view of the B7 universe and I watch the show from that perspective.
Or, in other words "That's *my* opinion" :)?
<< Fiona wrote: << We got disagreed with and debated, true, but sometimes the disagreeing got more than a little heated. >>
In response to this, I'm going to repost a comment I made earlier.
It should be pointed out that the Deliverance thread was a lively, interesting, and congenial debate (in fact, one of the best we've had in some time). It wasn't til posts became insulting (beginning with the "Wolf at your door" message) that there began to be a certain amount of resentment at the insistence that if we couldn't see sexism in "Deliverance" we must be stupid or uninformed.
Also, seeing a list member write that another list member's posts make them sick is extremely disheartening.
Hang about, two things.
1) That was *Wendy.* I am talking about *me.* Leave Wendy out of this, please-- she's nobody I know, and I stick up for her out of a sense of justice and a longstanding hatred of seeing all the other kids in the playground beating up on one kid, however justified I may have felt they were.
2) There's a post from Shane a while back which points out, with evidence from the Archive, that Wendy didn't actually say even half of that, at all.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
It wasn't til posts became insulting
(beginning with the "Wolf at your door" message) that there began to be a certain amount of resentment at the insistence that if we couldn't see sexism in "Deliverance" we must be stupid or uninformed.
2) There's a post from Shane a while back which points
out, with evidence from the Archive, that Wendy didn't actually say even half of that, at all.
actual email:
KNOCK KNOCK
There's a handsome wolf at the door. Let him in and he will take away everything, including your reason for living, and then leave you to die.
Deliverance is not sexist-- it is not imperialist-- it is not misogynistic-- it's a test. Only the victim will find excuses and fight to open the door and let the wolf in. Even when the truth is spelt out to them.
THINK.... WHICH ARE YOU-- WOLF OR SHEEP?
Wendy
By which point of course, the discussion had already rabbited off in half a dozen different directions including numerous excursions into levity without affecting the overall "seriousness" of the thread. For what it's worth, this was the post that irritated me most and I believe others must have reacted in the same way because despite Mr. Little's own interpretation this struck me as a direct criticism of failing to understand (despite the truth being spelt out to me) that I am making excuses to accept an existing paradigm (and based on the handsome wolf- leave to die reference one directly referring to the poster's position on sexism of the episode) because I am a sheep. And having gone back and read many of the posts again, I am not surprised at what I read, nor is it substantially different than I remember it( though it might help to point out that not several different people where arguing their points with each other and saying "you're opinion" etc. to each other in addition to Wendy maintaining that it was all sexist in some fashion matter what argument was presented). Regardless of whatever hard feelings experienced while having to defend one's views may have been( and feeling that one was accused of the inability to see what was "obvious" in some posters' minds), it would appear most of the real nastiness began after the "sexism" thread died down and shifted to an ill-expressed position concerning lyst members ways of posting.
Just an unasked for opinion of the same material reread by others. I like posts of all sorts and simply eliminate those which don't interest me. What I don't care for is criticism of other people's ways of posting. Everyone has their likes and dislikes in postings - might as well learn to lump it. I've had to sit on my hands concerning other's means of expression lately and if I can do it, so can others. (not that I post much of course, but that also means I must have been pretty upset to even consider posting, if you know what I mean. ;) )
-
Caveatemptor1＠aol.com -
Fiona Moore -
huh