Carol Mc wrote:
Sally, if Wendy had indeed called you "worthless crap" I would have been the first to come to your defense. But I honestly never saw Wendy attacking the poster. Now admittedly I may not remembering everything, and I'd appreciate it if such attacks exist if someone would repost the *quotes*. Twisting her words into personal attacks don't count.
Well, I *really* don't want to turn this into a "but she said, but you said!" kind of thing, and would much prefer to just bury the whole issue, but in the interest of pointing out the kind of effect that ill-chosen words can have on people, I'll say this... The final straw, for me, the thing that turned my perception of Wendy's posts from simply "annoying rants best ignored" to "deliberate and hateful personal attack on somebody I like" was this phrase: "try not to make the rest of us sick." This was aimed directly at Sally, who had made an innocent comment to a newcomer to the Lyst that she would doubtless see lots of "Avon-wallow" posts if that was the sort of thing she was interested in. And it struck me not *only* as a personal attack (implying "Sally makes me sick!") but as an attempt to silence those who want to discuss topics Wendy isn't interested in. Everything she said after that was interpreted in light of that perception, something that was, frankly, very easy to do because of the generally hostile tone. (And she *did* use the word "crap," albeit not paired with the word "worthless" and not *directly* aimed at anyone, IIRC.)
Again, I don't want to hash all this out at length. I just want to put in a plea for everyone to *please* try and remember that there's an actual human being on the other end of the electron stream.
And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual.
I will add to this that this is why, rather than simply yelling about things that bother you, it's a good idea to explain *why* they bother you. I mean, now that we *understand* Wendy's problem with certain topics, we can rationally discuss whether she's got a valid point, whether such topics *do* belong here or not, etc.
I will admit that I've also enjoyed some S/M B7 stories. And was shocked to find I enjoyed them. But I don't enjoy S/M in real life. No more than I enjoy war and killing in real life.
I think this is also an important point. I enjoy reading about things -- and sometimes writing about them -- that I would never, ever, *ever* want to experience in real life. In real life, I can't handle seeing someone else in pain. I sometimes get actual, physical, sympathy pains when other people hurt, and it's not pleasant. I won't swat flies or step on cockroaches. And I can't stand the sight of blood. But, if I happen to enjoy reading a story in which Avon gets tortured or something, that makes me a sadist? That seems kind of weird to me. IMO the difference between liking something in fiction or fantasy and liking it (or even condoning it) in reality is a large and important one.