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----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Ragan bragan@aoc.nrao.edu
And IMO, it's one thing to say "OK, you can argue about canon all you like, but I'm going to watch and think about Avon and Blake together" and another to say "Avon and Blake *were* together, look right here!" Which you're not, Betty, I know, but believe it or not, I have heard quite a few arguments along that line.
I believe you, that you've encountered that attitude. Personally, what *I* object to is one fan telling another "you're wrong to see it that way." Whatever "that way" is. And this is something that can and does work both ways.
Like you, I also object to people saying "you're wrong to view it that way," whatever that is. But thing is, and one reason why I may have been coming across rather anti-slash lately, is because I also don't like the "anything goes!" attitude which basically holds that one can read anything into the text, and it can't be contradicted because all interpretations are valid (I blame the extreme elements of the postmodernist movement myself, grumble grumble). People can interpret whatever they like, but to my mind there's some that fits the text, some that fits the text with a bit of stretching and straining, and some that doesn't fit the text at all, and these should all be acknowledged as such.
Certainly slash fans have been told that they are "wrong" (in both "factual" and "moral" senses of the word)
Not to sound utterly Tory here, but I do think it also has to be acknowledged that some people do have sensibilities which should be respected for politeness' sake (which I am blatantly disregarding at the moment, but in fairness I'll point out that we're both using serious warnings on the topic thread). Related example: Oxford Uni is currently encouraging all its colleges to make condoms freely available to students as part of a safe-sex campaign. As a member of my college's Common Room Committee, I was privy to a debate on this subject, as, while we all agreed that this was a good idea, several of the College's members are of Muslim and Christian sects which have moral objections to seeing contraceptives freely passed around. Finally, we agreed to compromise, and to confine the condoms to the W.C.s in the college bar (which is a public place, but not one the abovementioned members would be likely to use). Thus, while I disagree with the idea of calling slashers "wrong," I can see why discretion might be advised.
Avon and Blake (particularly on Avon's part).
As I'm sure you're aware, I don't agree, and for reasons we've discussed :).
Jenna and Blake (almost entirely on Jenna's part, I think).
But the fact that in "Duel," Jenna is the one chosen to represent the "death of a friend" suggests it's mutual. Also see below.
Possibly Cally and Avon (though perhaps more on Cally's than on Avon's).
As I said, certainly it's ambiguous. Although it's interesting, actually, that on her death she cries out "Blake!"
seem not unreasonable to me (I could believe Tarrant and Dayna engaging in the occasional bout of recreational sex quite easily, for example),
Possible, though in such a closed environment, I'd think that recreational sex would quite quickly lead to something closer, or at the very least to jealousy issues (which she doesn't show during Tarrant's extracurricular relationships).
Indeed, my point exactly-- which is why I tend to prioritise onscreen evidence :).
Canon, IMO, is the starting point, but if you never dare to venture beyond it, well, what's the point?
Yes, but as we've both been saying (I think!) some ventures are easier to fit in with the canon than others.
. Many people see having sex with men as
extremely out of character for Avon. Others don't. I don't; as I've said before, I can easily see the character as bisexual, based on what's on the screen.
Again, can you give me examples?
[talking about that scene from "The Web" here] Blake replies, "I'm not surprised," without eye contact, in a tone which is decidedly fed up and weary.
<Interestingly enough, I don't hear his tone there as "fed up and weary" at *all*. >
How do you hear it, then?
A little bemused, I suppose. A little wary. A little... Hmm, not sure of the adjective. Like he's trying to let Avon know he's got Avon's number, while at the same time wheels are turning in his head as he works on figuring Avon out. *Maybe* a little frustrated (hey, Avon's hard to figure out!). But I don't get "fed up" out of it at all.
I think he *has* worked Avon out by this point, and I don't hear anything quizzical in his voice at all. More, "Here we go again."
But, you know, there's a lot of diversity in slash fic. Personally, while I find a simple fun romp or sexy PWP can be enjoyable, it's stuff (slash or gen) that gets into the character complexities that I find most interesting and satisfying. And slash fic that meets those criteria certainly exists. (Didn't you say a few threads back that you had, in fact, read some slash fiction that *did* make you think about the series?)
I did, and those were what I was referring to when I said that I thought slash which did take other complexities into account could work for me (although I have to admit, the slash I was thinking of when I made that remark didn't actually do much to my mind to explore the characterisation of/relationship between the partners, but made me think about other things, e.g. the ethics of terrorism). But as I've said, the PWPs I've seen tend to outnumber the stuff which interests me.
However, most of what I've read seems to go more along the lines of "Avon and Blake seem to respect each other but be suspicious of each other, Avon risks everything twice on a slim chance of finding Blake, Blake trusts Avon despite all the odds... why is this? I know, they're lovers!"
Ah, well, that seems to have the causality backwards, to me.
Sorry, not sure I understand. Please accept that I'm dumb, and spell it out for me.
Disagree. Kin relationships *do* change. I was fairly close to some of my cousins when I was a teenager; today, they are virtually strangers to me. Here's how *I* interepret this line: Blake is reflecting back on his previous life, which seems very distant to him now, very divorced from the life he's currently living. He hasn't seen any of his family since before his mindwipe (faked tapes not couting), and perhaps even his memories of them have been affected by the Federation's tampering. In any case, he's certainly had at least one major break with his past. He might regard that time as being almost like something out of another life. In that previous life, Inga meant a lot to him (I see her as being probably a little-sister figure, for reasons I'll get into in a minute). But now, he hasn't thought of her in a long time, and his feelings aren't the same. Hence the past tense. (And the fact that he doesn't just say "she's my cousin," as that doesn't actually imply any kind of emotional attatchment, just a genetic relationship.)
Fair enough argument :), but one also has to note that Travis (who has previously stated "I know that man better than myself") picked Inga as the bait to lure Blake to Exbar. Not Ushton; not Ushton and Inga (even if we assume that Blake has no other surviving relatives which might be equal candidates); not even a planetful of innocent people whom Travis will destroy if Blake doesn't talk. The bait has to be something Travis knew he would take-- hence he would have to go for somebody to whom Blake had a strong emotional connection. And again, if it had simply been the kin tie, why not Ushton, or both of them?
OK, here's my reasoned argument for why I *don't* think it was sexual. When Ushton meets Blake, he tells him "you've grown." Which implies that he hasn't seen his uncle (and thus, presumably, his uncle's daughter) since he before he had reached adulthood.
Or it could be that he's gotten fatter :) (only joking! I accept your point).
This is confirmed by the fact that Blake refers to having been to Exbar when he was "a boy." Now, we know from "Weapon" that Blake is 34. We don't know how old Inga is, but she looks quite young (and the fact that everyone keeps referring to her as a "girl" seems to reinforce that).
*All* females under forty seem to get referred to as "girls" at some point or other in the series. It was the 1970s after all. But fair enough, she does look about 25.
I'd say
mid-twenties at the most. (Anybody know how old the actress was at this time, just for reference?) Now, let's say that Blake had a late growth spurt, and the last time he visited Exbar he was as old as 20 (which might *just* qualify him as having been a "boy"). And let's say Inga's much older than she looks -- late 20's instead of early 20's, say as old as 29. That would make her 5 years younger than Blake, or 15 to Blake's 20 when Blake last visited Exbar. Now, it's *possible* that, at age 20, Blake was having a sexual affair with his 15-year-old cousin, but, I dunno, that strikes me as a little bit icky.
I think that's impeccably argued so far. However, at that age, people frequently do have romantic relationships which mean a lot to them at the time and afterwards, without actually having sex. This, though, doesn't make the feelings any less romantic, or important for both parties. Teenagers do also have crushes, which again are powerful for those involved, and which resonate in later life (as anyone who's ever met up with someone they fancied in secondary school later on knows) but don't generally lead to sex.
[Jenna]
I find it easy to imagine that she did, in fact, do this and he utterly failed to respond...
But where does he utterly not respond? He does. I've pointed out how he touches her face in "Bounty." In "Killer," they sit together on the couch, smiling and chatting with lots of eye contact. In fact, there is mutual eye-contact and smiling in many episodes. I've mentioned "Duel," which IMO is significant. Finally, in "Blake," Blake knows how she dies, suggesting that he cared enough to stay in contact throughout the wilderness years. Again, not to say that there *was* a deep relationship... but there's more evidence of romantic feeling between them than for Blake and anyone else in the principal cast.
Which is a very good point, and one which I think actually refutes the "Blake shows little interest in women, therefore he's gay," argument which some people (not you, Betty, but some others) have brought up
I *would* make the argument that Blake shows little interest in women, therefore it's *possible* that he's gay, though.
:), but IMO the other possibilities should be given greater priority given the lack of supporting evidence. See also above and last couple of messages, re number of times Blake does show interest in women.
But compare the Avon/Tynus scenes with, say, scenes with Avon/Servalan or Avon/Sara (if you can stand to watch Mission to Destiny again), in which the eye contact is both threatening *and* sexual.
Hmm. Trying to decide if I see sexual elements in his interaction with Sara or not...
The scene I'm thinking of is the bit where he and the crew stage the gunfight to bring her out into the open. She comes out, he grabs hold of her and, possibly by accident but it does happen, grabs her breast. They struggle briefly, during which time they are face-to-face, quite close together, and are making eye contact. Avon then punches her; she falls into the arms of the crewmen, and Avon says, rather absently, as he moves away, "You'd better take her. I rather enjoyed that."
Which to my mind suggests that what was intended to be a violent act suddenly turned sexual, for him if not her.
["Sarcophagus" theory -- not mine -- snipped]
I just went and watched the episode back, and I'd have to say that's actually a pretty valid interpretation.
I thought so, too.
:)!
Yes, that could be rather significant, couldn't it? And, really, I don't see much in the way of interest on Cally's part either before or after that. (A few very vaguely possible things, maybe, but, hell, less than for Avon and Blake, IMO.)
Again, if you're talking about a sexual interest, while I do agree that the Avon-Cally evidence is slender and ambiguous, I've still yet to see a single example of Avon-Blake interaction that even falls into that category. The episode "Sarcophagus" is IMO a very clever one in the way that it has its cake and eats it as far as A/C is concerned, it gives and refutes evidence for both sides... but again, ambiguity for Avon and Cally is more than nothing for Avon and Blake.
I think that's one reason why I don't really understand the argument that so many people seem to be making, that since there's no solid evidence for slash relationships obviously there *weren't* any.
There's no evidence at all, that's the problem-- which still to me implies that to say that they existed falls in the same category as saying Avon likes disco-dancing.
For me, engaging with the show is all about exploring the *possibilities*. Anything that opens those possibilities up and gives me more to think about, new ways of exploring the characters, different interpretations to choose from, I'm glad of it! Why would you want to cut off areas of possibility out of hand? And why on earth would you want to insist that *other* people should do it? (Er, that's a generic "you," not anything directed at you, personally, Fiona!)
Cheers, cos I'm not insisting anything of the sort :). Just arguing for more acknowledgement as to what's a strong possibility and what's a bit of a stretch of credibility, and what's a fantasy.
(Fiona quoting Boucher here):
"No, and this was quite deliberate. Because with a drama series [as opposed to a soap--FM], it should be possible to show any of the episodes, apart from the first and last, in any particular order. So really, from that point of view, it would be essential to try and keep the relationships between the regulars as simple as possible.
Hmm. If that was their intent, IMO, it wasn't particularly successful. Thank goodness. One of the things that I particularly like about B7 is the way the characters actually develop and change over the course of the series (and their relationships with each other seem to develop and change, as well).
True, though as I argued in my article "There Is A Hole in Your Plotline" (Zenith Magazine, 2000 <buy it, buy it>), compared to series which were actually intended to have a soaplike element (e.g. B5), the changes are pretty subtle and minimal. Furthermore, the point Boucher seems to be making there is not that relationships couldn't develop and change, but that they shouldn't change so much or in such a way that somebody dropping casually into the series midway in couldn't pick up pretty quickly on the relationships between the characters. It's not necessary to have seen "Seek Locate Destroy" or "Trial" to understand Travis in "Hostage," for instance. However, were an explicitly-portrayed romance to happen between, say, Blake and Jenna, a lot of internal continuity would need to be built up. It's true that one could tune into one episode and understand them as friends, and then into another and understand them as lovers, but it does require a bit more viewer explanation than simply having Travis say "I'm on the run from the Federation." (Another parallell e.g.: as someone who watched DS9 for a while, lost interest and then happened across an episode a few years later, my reaction was "Odo and Kira?!? When? How?" Not hard to see they were involved, but a bit harder to understand what had happened to the characters).
Good point. But again, I'd say that some fanfic fits what we see on screen better than others, and some that doesn't does so with more justification than others, and that I think we have to be careful not to confuse our categories.
True enough. But where one draws the line between something that fits well with canon and something that doesn't is going to differ a lot from person to person.
As we've seen. But I'm still campaigning for a continuum!
<I think "shallow," as a generalization, is a miscategorization.>
<slaps wrist :)> But see above, re: the focus on sex over
characterisation
of most slash that's come my way
Gotcha, and I understand that this is based on your experience. But, you know, that's the second time a style of fic that I like has been dismissed as "shallow" on this list in recent memory, and, frankly, it does prick at my emotions a little. (No, I'm not looking for an apology, or anything.
You're getting one, or a partial one anyway :). But as I said, I have only my own experience to go on.... can you give me an example, either online or on an offlist post?
<What do you think the series is actually about? :)>
Ooh, lots of things... so as not to open the floodgates: I'd call it an action-adventure series with a complex political subtext stemming from
a)
the politics of Britain in the 1970s; b) memories/fears of
totalitarianism,
and with literary roots in sources as varied as Shakespeare and Zane
Grey.
We do seem to focus on very different things (which, I hasten to add in case anybody still isn't clear, is IMO very much a good thing).
And I'll hasten to add my voice to this! Personally, I'm enjoying this discussion; it's giving me a good chance to explore and think about some things which have been on my mind almost since I discovered organised fandom. But there should always be more than one voice...
Blake's 7 is about human beings responding, in their own varying, individual ways, to life in a violent, corrupt, unfair and uncaring universe.
The way I see it, that sentence covers a *hell* of a lot.
Including politics and allegorical representations :). Bit too character-oriented for my take, but hey, as we've both been saying, live and let live...
Some of us do better than others... haven't we all met some rather sad people who seem to have the TV show confused with reality :)?
Actually, you know, I don't think I ever have. I've certainly met people who, IMO, took things way too seriously, but I've never met anybody who, as far as I could tell, had an honest-to-god problem telling TV drama from reality. (There are those who can tell the difference between fantasy and reality just fine and just prefer the fantasy, but I can't say I blame them at all. :))
Oog. Get me alone at a con sometime (assuming I make it to one in the next few years, grumble grumble) and I'll tell a few stories...
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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