Okay, I have put my serious, communicative hat on; let's see if I can keep it from falling off...
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
I like people who THINK about what they're
saying...
Unfortunately, you've made it painfully clear that you like people who think exactly what you do.
No. I have a lot of respect for people on the list who have different opinions to me. I just don't like people who say things and expect everyone to agree with them. And I have said before that this is not true of me.
In all honesty, I don't think _anybody_ here expects to always be agreed with. I certainly don't; that's one of the first lessons I learned here.
I accept your word for it that you don't expect it either. But the words in which you express yourself are giving _some_ of us entirely the opposite signals - you repeat yourself without adding new information, you use inflammatory language, you shout. Lots of us occasionally do these things by accident or design - I know sometimes I'm ruder than I intend to be - but you seem to have a very high level of these red flags in your posts. If you're not _deliberately_ being offensive, wouldn't it be prudent to try and figure out why you're coming across that way, and remedy it? I might enjoy having an actual _conversation_ with you; but mostly, I feel I'm being ranted at.
Anyone who's read a
half-dozen or so of Sally's posts ought to be able to see that she puts a lot of thought into them - not to mention a great deal of goodwill and respect for other fans and their diverging opinions, something you could use lessons in. And so could I, but in this case, I just can't bring myself to care.
It's not Sally per se. Sally just happened to write the post that set me off.
But <confused now> you get to rant at Sally and that's not personal, but when we object to you doing it and point it out, that is personal? That's a bit of a double standard, don't you think? And it isn't the first time - you did it in the Deliverance thread, too. That's the _only_ reason I said anything here, just because you seemed to be attacking Sally repeatedly.
And lest you think that I feel this way because I agree with Sally - I'm baffled by the attraction of Beautiful Suffering, don't much care for H/C (AFAIK), don't read smut-fic (at least not for the smut), and Blake drives me 'round the twist; and Sally and I are probably the two most vocal polar opposites in one particular debate that everybody would probably prefer I not mention. But it's _fun_ to debate with Sally, because it's all about the ideas - it never gets personal, there's no hint of 'well, if you don't agree with me, you're just sick'.
Which is why it sickens me to see her under fire. Please just do me one favour; go back and read the post you wrote to her, and ask yourself if it honestly wouldn't bother you if someone used that kind of tone with you. And then, if you want to take aim at me, go ahead; I probably deserve it. But Sally doesn't; she's one of the most polite and good-willed of the regular posters here.
But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs.
Okay, a few points, which I'm going to enumerate (for clarity, not to be snippy):
(1) Beautiful Suffering, while not my thing, is canonical; it appears onscreen in several eps, and thus, to my mind, is legitimate lyst fodder. It's always okay to skip threads one isn't interested in; maybe we need to be more careful about changing the subject line when the threads mutate, so certain topics are more easily avoided?
(2) H/C is not necessarily either S/M or slash. It's also canonical - strictly speaking, the scene in which Dayna kisses Avon could be viewed as H/C. Putting a character through the wringer isn't always about beating him up - sometimes it's about dramatic tension. The protagonist has to overcome obstacles; physical pain can be (and often is) one of those. And my impression is that most H/C fans are more interested in the comfort part, anyway.
(3) If I understand correctly, there aren't any rules against discussing adult topics on lysator. The Other List is a matter of courtesy on the part of those who enjoy discussing adult subjects, so that those of us who prefer to remain more childlike <g> (while still having an adult _level_ of discussion) have a place where we can participate in online fandom, too. I'm extremely grateful to have such a place; and it's as well to keep in mind that since there are no hard and fast rules, and since people will always disagree about what adult subject matter is, occasionally one might run into something one would rather not read. But frankly, I've heard _much_, _much_ worse in the corner grocery. My suggestion is, ignore it.
Mistral