Phew! I hope this makes sense at the end of it all - I must admit that I am getting a little frazzled out by the slash/porn discussion and needed a short break from it - I've only just begun to look at other topics - but it was always my intent to answer yours and Susans post - I still have Susans to get to but I'm mentally knackered[I hope it doesn't show in this post :-)] and am off to watch a bit of T.V. for the moment :-)
I wrote:
This wasn't actually my point - I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of porn - I don't like it - but that's not the issue, the issue is introducing it in a market that is not conditioned for it and displaying the likeness of *non porn* actors on pornographic illustrations.
Tavia wrote:
I should make it clear that I was discussing only written material in my post.
Point taken. However; I would also like to point out that(although I have read a couple of stories that I *strongly* objected to) my objections were never based on the written material so much, only with it being interspersed with general fiction. I also believe (and will remain in this belief) that to use the likeness of any individual in any area, without their actual consent is a gross distortion of civil liberties and these are my main points of contention. If consent is given, then there is no gripe in my opinion - but the material should still be classified adult.
Tavia wrote:
My point is simply that it seems odd to me that *explicitly* violent stories (I wouldn't call blowing up Federation installation particularly explicit) appear to be ok in genzines with no age statement, while even quite tame reference to sex, especially homosexual, is deemed 'adult-only'.
Hmmm, this is (IMO) a very good point. Anything, anything at all that falls into the rather murky area of not being suitable for young minds, should come under the adults only zine - this includes severely violent storylines - I spoke of sensitive adults where slash etc was concerned - I'm not a fan but I would rather read non violent slash than severely violent non slash but I would still go to the adult only section for both, should that be to my liking. I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask that certain storylines be catalogued and placed in zines accordingly.
**I have just noted this piece from you further down the page**
I agree that the overall rating of a zine should reflect the rating of the most-likely-to-offend story contained therein.
This makes perfect sense, Maybe I am arguing from the wrong angle - and would like to approach it from this point. Mixed Zines for those that like a bit of everything (including general stories)that keeps one side happy - now for the other side and the children - naturally, non AO but so they don't miss out on the general B7 stories presented in the adult zine, these same stories should also go into the general B7 stories zine minus the adult input. But I must add that if adult zines are on display for general viewing then I personally still believe that cover illustrations should not be of a possibly offensive nature and likenesses of individuals...etc, etc, etc
I was going to scrap my other response in regard to zines and mixed material as the above sems a better approach but I did make a couple of observations that if you have a response to, I would be interested in hearing.
Tavia wrote:
I'd personally rather deal with the child who's just learned that some humans engage in homosexual relationships than the one who gets the impression violence is the solution to his/her problems.
I think most youngsters can handle the knowledge of both without any dramatic repercussions - I don't want to get into a dispute, I truly don't, but I feel I must point out that your wording is slanted to minimise my argument against porn/slash in an open market and to dramatically reinforce your position re: violence. I too would much rather deal with the kid who has just discovered that homosexual activity exists as opposed to the snot nosed bully who uses violence as an answer to lifes problems...I'm actually on your side in the severely violent storyline issue, however; I must reiterate that my concerns re: porn/slash lean heavily towards the fact that it can be found amongst general stories in (I imagine) all of fandoms stories and therefore a sufficient diet of this sort of material could warp the general behavioural patterns of some youngsters (extreme cases only) I would like to add, that this also applies with a steady diet of violence goes without saying...therefore; I believe that these should be placed in AO categories as well. (it all comes down to the levels involved - a line has to be drawn as to what is considered possibly influential material and what is not and then separate the two.)
I wrote:
If I've read this right, then you are saying that erotica only is dull - B7 type stories only is dull, therefore a mix of the two allows for a diversity in style to satisfy a range of moods.
Tavia wrote:
Actually that wasn't really my point. I meant that a gen story is constrained by not being able to mention sex, and especially not homosexual sex. Some stories that works fine for. Great. But...some gen stories feel as if they've been squeezed into an alternate universe where the possibility of sex doesn't exist. Not so great.
Okay, I have read a number of stories but I would say nowhere near as much as maybe yourself and others on this list - so I will take it as read that some stories have a feel about them that sex should exist but it doesn't - and I agree, this could make for some frustrating reading...but wouldn't this be the fault of the author? they have instigated a moment which promises something but does not deliver...I would say with these stories, the author should whack the sex in and make it adult reading, however; if the author does not wish to do this, then no amount of mixing the stories in a single zine is going to change this.
Conversely, in a slashzine, knowing that the outcome of the character interactions is going to be sex can spoil the fun -- for me.
Again this would be the fault of the authors involved - I have read a number of slash stories now, well no, in truth I have actually only read a few but I have attempted to read alot more, a fair % of these stories are simply about the sex, (for me)not exactly what I would call riveting reading...Again, a zine involved in adult material could have the romp stuff and also a selection of stories which imply whichever relationship the author wishes to imply but not actually bring sex into it.
I wrote:
Only one thief and one attempt at embezzlement no murderers '
Tavia wrote:
I'd be interested to know where you got this from. I understood that both Gan and Avon's crimes included murder.
I don't think Avon was sent to Cygnus Alpha for any crime other than an attempt to defraud the Federation's banking system...that he would and does kill in the time that follows is a difficult way to categorise him as they all kill in the act of fighting the rebellion - season four is another point altogether :-)
Gan - as I said, this is only my viewpoint - in canon, he was classified as a murderer by the Federation but, sympathised with by Jenna when he tells his story to her - I guess I did too, so I don't see him as a murderer, more as someone avenging a murder. However; you have me on a technicality - so I concede that part of the point to you :-)
===== Cheryl. (My favourite 'Blake's 7' moment) What a fiasco! We could take over the ship you said, if I did my bit. Well, I did my bit, and what happened? Your 'troops' bumble around looking for someone to surrender to, and when they've succeeded, You, follow suit! (Avon to Blake. "Spacefall")
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