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5511 discussions

Re: Deliverance
by Helen Krummenacker 11 Feb '01

11 Feb '01

> and at the end, on board > the Liberator, he shows more concern for the rocket's future than hers. > Well... the rocket is full of very old machinery and potential life, but not *living* life. Unless everything works perfectly, the launch will do no good, and how (as someone else hinted at before) are the new people going to be raised to adulthood? This is definitely a case of gaping plot hole. Meeghat is, unless she's lying about 'others', part of a society. She looks to be about 30. There's no reason to think she won't survive for a good many more years among her people. OTOH, I can see this as a really good play to start yelling about misogynism. Because the script does seem to place potential life above the life of an individual woman. I would tend to shrug it off as shoddy writing if given no evidence to the contrary-- I try not to look for things to be angry about and only worry about *patterns* of sexism. (Thus my complaint that Cally should have been kept as a warrior and given leadership scripts, not relegated into mommy-mystic roles). But, if you look for hidden ideology, this does seem to be an anti-choice position built into the script. Meeghat doesn't ask to be rescued, but then, as a 'good religious woman', she would not put her health above the potential life entrust to her. Yet, even if this was an intentional pro-life ideology written into the script, I believe that people do have the right to express their viewpoints. Yes, it's annoying now that I've thought to look at it this way, but I appreciate science fiction for its potential to rephrase the topics of modern debates, and the fact that many people think it a shame that Meeghat's future was not explained shows that just rephrasing the debate does not necessarily change people's minds. I may not agree with Neil's ideology all of the time (the middle classes are necessary for successful revolutions if we go by history. When Proles take over governments without having previous democratic experience, we get mob rule and everyone who has shown talent and cleverness is persecuted by those seeking a lowest common denominator. After the mob have wiped out those who can create stability, a dictator steps in)-- but his posts are incredibly well-written, intelligent, and enjoyable. I bring this up to answer the question of why intelligent women can enjoy the episode Deliverance, without resorting to character elements.

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 11 Feb '01

11 Feb '01

Penny wrote: >I find it hard to imagine how one would use emoticons in dialogue, though. >"Vila, you're an idiot, colon hyphen right round bracket," Avon said. I think the text equivalent would be 'Well, hurrah for us,' said Avon, heavy sarcasm evident in his tone. >(And, by the by, were any of said proofs connected to any paranoid types >whose pseudonyms mean "trashy Victorian literature"?) To be strictly truthful, I haven't a clue exactly what *he* was reading. *I* however was reading proofs by a paranoid type whose pseudonym ponces around with a certain line of TS Eliot dialogue. Neil wrote (regarding my suggestion of internet and e-mail usage influencing style): >It might be a contributory factor, but this style of writing seems to stretch >way back into the dawn of fanfic history (well, early Horizon zines anyway), >certainly way before internet use was commonplace (which has only >happened over the past five years or so). Internet usage might be recent, but I seem to recall overusing e-mail, a precursor to chatrooms and a certain bulletin board which shall be nameless way back in 1989 or so, and plenty of others were doing so many years earlier than I. (I learned to touch-type in order to be able to hold several simultaneous notify (chat) conversations and do some work.) >I think Betty's explanation is closer to the truth - >an attempt to recreate the tone of the series, >and especially the characters, as exactly as possible. >What someone recently described as 'reprographic mode'. I think it was me who described it as the 'reprographic mode', but I was deliberately quoting you, Neil. It's strange, most writers have a fair idea in their heads what their characters sound like and how they pronounce their lines, but they (we) don't seem to feel the necessity to point them quite so strongly when putting them in the mouths of original characters, despite the fact that nearly all readers will know what Blake or Avon sound like and their nat ural manner of delivering lines, while our own original characters don't start with that advantage. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] OT: Penguins
by Deborah Day 11 Feb '01

11 Feb '01

This email was delivered to you by The Free Internet, a Business Online Group company. http://www.thefreeinternet.net --------------------------------------------------------------- >Since we're talking about penguins again, I thought that Una and Neil >would be interested in one of the sights on my day out today - the >penguin fence along the side of the road. Yes, really - the main highway >runs a few yards from the dunes and beach, and the penguin colonies in >said dunes don't have a very good grasp of the highway code. There was an article in the paper the other day saying that a baby penguin had been found outside McDonalds in Melbourne being very depressed. Apparently people take them home from the beach and then leave them in the town and they just can't cope with it. I wonder what it would have ordered? Debbie

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Deliverance
by jan b 11 Feb '01

11 Feb '01

I'm a bit behind in my reading of the posts, but I'm going to post this anyway fwiw. Sorry if it's behind the times. Some thoughts. I've just rewatched Deliverance and enjoyed it a lot more than the last time, when I found I just wanted to sink through the sofa at the Avon-Meegat scenes - nngh! These are my thoughts: 1. Avon is the one identified by Meegat as 'Lord' simply because he is the one who speaks the Words of the Prophecy she has been waiting for - 'Who are you?'. Anyone might have said it, but Avon does. 2. Jenna is captured by the scavengers because a. Gan told her to wait, b. She agreed to wait, c. They were both stupid enough to separate. 3. They can be forgiven for doing such an incautious thing because a. The planet surface has lethal radiation and is unlikely to house threatening fauna, b. Zen had been able to identify no life signs. 4. The scavengers went for Jenna because a. Who in their right mind would attack Gan with just polystyrene rocks :-), and b. Yes, they may need a healthy female to join the tribe. 5. Jenna is not a feeble resourceless character. She frees herself from her restraints and is very unlucky to be spotted by one of the tribesmen as she exits the tent. If anything, Vila is the feeble one, since he makes enough fuss when captured to alert the whole tribe (and see below). The way I see the episode is as giving the writer, the viewers and the B7 crew a chance for amusement at Avon's expense. It's early in the series and we have all had the chance to see how seriously he takes himself. For once he finds himself in a situation where he just can't hide his discomfiture. And on the other hand, he plainly can't resist letting the flattery carry on for a bit - and the others can see this too. It does show his human side; his actions deflate his own action hero/clever clogs persona for a moment, and even Blake can't resist making him squirm with a bit of good natured sarcasm at the end. I don't think Terry Nation would be entirely unaware of a potential Freudian interpretation of the rocket, although I think he'd have let it ride as a bit of wry humour. His topmost thought would have been to flatter us by giving us the opportunity to think - _rockets_ that's _really_ old technology (letting us identify with Blake's crew in the XXXth century, not the unsophisticated people of the planet, and not 20th century TV viewers). In the late seventies, and especially in TV programmes, any sexist nuances (for better or worse) wouldn't have been taken as seriously as now, or even recognised for what they were, as I think has already been said. It's another opportunity for the writer to send Avon up. Regarding leaving Meegat and her people behind, I think strangely it's a sign of respect. It will be several lifetimes before the rocket reaches destination (500 years in fact), and the new people will be a different generation. Meegat's people are dying out, but they have fulfilled their life's mission. They presumably cannot reproduce (in sufficient numbers to remain viable - Meegat may well be one of the very few young people left - 'Our numbers grow smaller, more die'). It seems fitting for them to end their lives on the planet which bore their civilisation. Where else would they want to be? My impression was that they had some resistance to the radiation (living underground?), and would be able to live out their lives as they had done before. Moving to another planet would not prevent the people's death, because the damage was done to their race when the first bombs dropped centuries ago. Meegat's responsibilities as priestess are still to her people even now. It's unthinkable that she would leave them, or that they would leave the planet. I agree with someone else who said that Avon is gentle with Meegat, but not misogynistic or sexist. The gap between her society and his is so great that it would be largely irrelevant to try to explain to her that he is not a god. Her definition of a god is someone who appears as if by magic and can operate the technology and set off the rocket - which in fact does define Avon. It's to his credit that he doesn't try to explain, thus enabling her to retain her position and dignity by performing her role in accordance with her people's traditions. Admittedly she does go overboard when he appears <g>, but by all accounts they have waited several generations for this ('_all_ of my life, as those before me waited'), so she can justifiably feel pretty good to be 'the chosen one' herself - in a religious not any other way. I agree with Cheryl that Avon on the whole is anything but sexist in this episode. It's to all their credit that they go along with what she wants them to do - when Gan says 'We are just men from a spaceship', Vila adds 'with problems of our own' - this is the last thing they need at the moment. I don't agree that Meegat's people would have worked out how to operate the switches by now. There would have been religious restrictions on doing so, which would automatically temper any natural curiosity. And who's to say they would have been wrong; you would only get one chance to do it right, at the risk of destroying the future of the race. The only sexist attitude I can identify is Vila's 'You're enjoying this, aren't you?' Yes Meegat is attractive. Yes Vila is jealous of the attention Avon is getting, but IMO Avon behaves impeccably throughout - and there is attraction on both sides between him and Meegat, as shown by Jenna's reaction when she enters the room. Despite this, Avon _doesn't_ take his relationship with Meegat further because he is too aware of the fact that it would be taking advantage of her. More examples: Avon raises her from her knees not once, but twice. 'Forgive me' 'I forgive you' He does everything in his power to counter her subservience. I can see the same potential for sexism arising if roles were reversed, but would Jenna behave as respectfully if faced with a young attractive and unworldly priest before whom she is in a similar position of power? And what derisive/patronising asides would you get between her and Cally? I hope Jenna would behave as Avon has. This is a power thing, not a gender thing. Finally it's quite a poignant moment when Avon replies to Meegat 'That seems like a poor reward somehow.' (Can't believe I'm presenting him as self-deprecating but that's the way it reads. He's only my _second_ favourite character after all:-) It may be that he is all too aware of the fate that awaits her. This would make it into a very sombre tale; also very in keeping with Terry Nation's writing, especially in B7. IMO any misogynistic agenda would have been the last thing on his mind. Jan B Wendy: Let's face it, in most TV sci-fi, the default position for women is as helpless rescuee. Me: I'd say that's true for TV sci-fi in the sixties, seventies and early eighties (Tarzan and Jane scenarios?!), but less so now. And in B7 Vila was always more likely to sprain his ankle than the female characters :-) In this respect the series could be seen as ahead of its times. Jan B _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] re: Deliverance and Jan B
by Marian de Haan 11 Feb '01

11 Feb '01

Mistral wrote: >Marian de Haan wrote: >> A *Roman* nose? Roman noses are supposed to be hooked. Avon's is perfectly straight :-)<< > >>From some angles, it's remarkably crooked. Not that I'm calling it Roman. < Can you give examples? Marian

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Re: [B7L] Time Squad Remake?
by Ellynne G. 11 Feb '01

11 Feb '01

On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:30:29 -0000 "Alison Page" <alison(a)alisonpage.demon.co.uk> writes: > Meegat/Gamete, the time-squad capsule, Chris Boucher's > fondly-remembered > story. We've got quite a sub-genre here. Stories which dramatise the > meaning, or lack of meaning, that sexual reproduction brings to an > individual life, but using space-colonisation as a metaphor. > > What I like about interpreting stories in this way is that it raises > questions in my mind. > > Does leaving children behind really make your life more meaningful? > Does a 'failure' to reproduce take anything away from your worth? > How much should you sacrifice of yourself for the chance to leave a > legacy? Just my feelings on the matter, but - I think one of the most important parts of our lives is how we interact with others. What we leave behind is our lives and how those lives touched others. There are people who've had incredibly meaningful lives who never had children, sure. There are people who, frankly, make you wish it was possible to keep them from having kids. The monsters of WW II (and other eras) who could be quite decent in their home life and terrifying elsewhere? This isn't deep, but I think most people manage interesting - sometimes incredible - mixes of good and evil in their natures. Orson Scott Card, in Red Prophet, summed it up by saying nearly everyone has something so bad they won't do it. Getting back to kids, however, they're the most overwhelming obligation package you ever get. Strangers - even friends - can be ignored or written off. Kids? Forget it. They're what Heinlein called "the whole Chinese obligation" (although he was speaking of cats). You're responsible. However it works on an individual scale, being responsible for all the children your race can have? Ever? No pressure, Meegat, no pressure. As for Time Squad, I think they should have dumped it on an uninhabited planet, preferably after Avon had done a little adjusting to the little zygotes' training programs to cut out the homicidal mania. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Meegat: Leave or Stay?
by Ellynne G. 11 Feb '01

11 Feb '01

If they had taken Meegat and her people, they couldn't have kept them on The Liberator. What options could they give them? 1) Resettlement on an uninhabited planet without the homes they know have or anything else familiar to them. Also with a bare minimum of medical or other supplies. This is not a good option. 2) Resettlement on an inhabited planet. Assuming they can get one to take the refugees (given the nature of the Federation, many neighboring planets might be extremely reluctant to take guests who don't come through very specific channels), this still means major upheaval and coping with a lot of things they may not feel like coping with. However, if it doesn't mean dumping them in a refugee camp with a considerably lower standard of living (and almost no chance of getting out, given the marketable skills and other things those wanting immigrants may be looking for), it seems a good option to me. Would it seem so to them? It somehow seems that any sales pitch was likely doomed to failure. _They're_ comfortable. The problems they have are all ones they're accustomed too, that probably don't even register with them as problems because that's the way life is. What did Shakespeare say about not wanting to fly to troubles we know not of? Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Liberator technology
by Helen Krummenacker 10 Feb '01

10 Feb '01

> > The ship has a strong suggestion of organic technology, and "feeds" off > energy. It's possible that it can create much or all of what it needs so > long as it has raw materials to work with. How far down do those raw > materials go? All the way down to being able to convert energy to > matter? This is giving me an eerie thought. The question of "What happened to the Liberator's first crew?" has come up from time to time. Given what we saw of the System, it would value the ship over any crew. Could the DSV have broken down its own crew for material after it was damaged? After bonding with Jenna, obviously some reprogramming was done of the computer via her brain; this might have included her values of human life above the ship.

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Re: [B7L] cats
by Tavia Chalcraft 10 Feb '01

10 Feb '01

Neil was taught: >As I was taught at school, gingers are overwhelmingly male >and the few ginger females are sterile. Seems not to be the case for me. I can assure you, as a ginger female, I have two healthy cat children doing fine. Neither ginger, mind you. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Harriet Monkhouse 10 Feb '01

10 Feb '01

Fiona wrote: >If you can find me one piece of evidence > for his embarrassment-- a line of dialogue, >a blush, a quick "Oh, great" eye-roll at the >others, anything-- I will (honest!) consider >revising my opinion. I'm not asking you to revise your opinion, merely to accept that some people have different opinions and that none of them is definitive. cf the end of Star One, where Paul (I will accept his evidence on this, as he's not trying to push his own interpretation) says he deliberately played his reaction to Gareth's "I have always trusted you" as blank, and allowed viewers to interpret that as indicating his deep love/hatred/whatever of the man. Which we did (my interpretation on that one happens to be fury). As Sally has often said, we were all issued with different tapes. I have no intention of sitting through what I consider a tedious episode, but off the top of my head, I would say that my tape depicts Avon speaking in a slow, formal, deadpan manner which I interpret as "I must retain my dignity at all costs in this horribly embarrassing situation." He does sound smug when Vila asks why Meegat picked him, but that's part of his relationship with Vila. (I also think "Probably" partly reflects his own confusion, and is partly an attempt to put Vila off the scent - if he said "No, I'm horribly embarrassed," Vila would never let him forget it for the next three years.) Harriet

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