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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Terminal (was: moloch/limiters)
by Marian de Haan 09 May '01

09 May '01

Guy Kendall wrote: >Hi everyone - I'm a newcomer here< Hi Guy, wellcome aboard. >Do we really believe Servalan thinks about this stuff much ? She's cunning, politically aware, has a certain amount of tactical deviousness/cleverness etc, but does she ever think of anything which doesn't directly affect her ?< I agree that Servalan doesn't seem to be the philosophical type. All her deeds show her ruthless and single-minded selfishness and I don't think there's room for any other thoughts in her mind. Marian

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Re: [B7L] Avon and Terminal
by Marian de Haan 09 May '01

09 May '01

Sally wrote: >Jacqui wrote: ><Avon expects to be picked up/'rescued' -> > >Well, MHO is that he *doesn't* - he knows he's walking wide-eyed into a trap, and that he will die (I love the line "Sentiment breeds weakness. Let it get a hold of you and you are dead," a beeeyootiful comment on what he's doing throughout).< And that's exactly what makes the episode so incomprehensible to me. Avon is acting on the outside chance that the message is real and Blake needs rescueing. Therefor I would expect Avon to want to get Blake out of the mess and not choose a course that will only make Avon end up in captivity too. The only time we see Avon being suicidal is at the end of Rumours of Death, when he takes off his teleport bracelet - and IMO that is caused by hurt pride more than anything else. ("Of all the things I have known myself to be, I never recognised the fool.") And it only lasts a short while as I think he's already over it when the teleport him up. Basically, Avon is a survivor and to bring himself into such a no-win situation is more stupid than I would have given him credit for. (I blame the Ultra - something must have gone wrong with the reversal of the brain-sucking process :-) ) Marian

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scripts and other ephemera
by Leia Fee 09 May '01

09 May '01

>When Avon almost shoots him, Blake was scripted to say: "You never could >tell your friends from your enemies,". Instead, we get the one word >"Missed". I've always liked that one word line. Leia

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No Changes Please
by Leia Fee 09 May '01

09 May '01

Hmm this is tricker than than last one! Hard to pin down what it is that I like so much Three things about the series... 1. The motley crew Blake ends up with specifically the fact that they don't instantly turn into converts to his cause and in fact actively oppose him quite often. 2. Realism. The crew squabbled, got bored and stressed and tired. Sometimes the bad guys won. 3. The interaction between the crew and the way it changes through the series. Three particular highlights... Mostly the little bits of banter, snarkiness and similar 1. Moloch. Vila actually standing up to Tarrant, telling him to stop shoving him around and then walking out on him when he threatens him. 2. Hostage. Jenna: [to Cally] What are you going to fire at?, Cally: Anything that moves. Ah a woman after my own heart<grin> 3. Redemption. The whole scene in the cell after Avon thumps Vila as he comes in. Leia the bruised

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Re: [B7L] Avon and Terminal
by Sally Manton 09 May '01

09 May '01

Jacqui wrote: <Avon expects to be picked up/'rescued' -> Well, MHO is that he *doesn't* - he knows he's walking wide-eyed into a trap, and that he will die (I love the line "Sentiment breeds weakness. Let it get a hold of you and you are dead," a beeeyootiful comment on what he's doing throughout). After all, not only does he tell them to get out if he misses one call (which instruction they *could* ignore, and he knows it) but he's made damn sure that in twelve hours they will leave him *whether they want to or not* - "the ship will set course for Calipheron. You cannot override it." Twelve hours isn't all that long, you know ... <otherwise why take Orac's key with him?> Personally I think that was just habit (do remember, he's not thinking *at all* clearly even if he's had a sleep :-)) though you could argue that it's to prevent them getting Orac to override the above course instruction. <(and the others have told him on more than one occasion - in 'Terminal' and RoD offhand, that they care for him - at least as a team member)> Yeeeessss ... and he *really* appreciated it in RoD, didn't he? They butted into his private affairs and - albeit said butting in saved his life - he clearly resented it ("This has nothing to do with you -- any of you," "So shut up and let me do what I came to do.") Again, MHO is that his decision to keep all of them - even Cally and Vila - out of the possibly-Blake business was partly inspired by the fact that he couldn't trust them all to (I-*his*-O, not at all humble) 'mind their own business'. He doesn't want them there if he *does* meet Blake again (given the amount of emotion on his face during that little 'talk', I don't blame him.) And of course he doesn't want to risk all of them - and the ship - if it's a trap. I think he expects to die on Terminal. His expression when he sees what he thinks is Blake clearly indicates (to me) that he *did not* have much if any hope that it was true. He knows what he's doing is suicidal (that's why all the precautions for the others) but he just can't ignore the one-off chance that he's wrong ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] No changes, please ...
by Kai V Karmanheimo 09 May '01

09 May '01

Well, late in the game once again, but here goes anyway. Sally wrote: <<[a] three things about Blake's 7 as a series that make it special for them, and different from other shows?>> I have recently tried to think what it is that still attracts me to Blake's 7, years after I should have put away such childish things, and found several factors. However, few of them are indigenous to this show, but when push comes to show, I would name these (just don't expect simple, straight-forward answers): 1. Dialogue. It's not just the abundance of catchy one-liners, for after all even the few good sitcoms out there are capable of producing similar in their best moments, but, in best cases, Blake's 7 ability to create and sustain a line of intelligent, poignant and often biting dialogue that is extremely streamlined, functional, sometimes even austere, but seems much more complex and intricate than it actually is. In best cases, this is exactly what it is (for some reason, "Rumours of Death" always suggests itself as the first example, but I have suspicion that nearly any Chris Boucher-scripted episode might do) and that is rare. Mind you, there are often times when I'd wish for more variation, especially to make characters more different from each other, because after all just having sarcastic bastards thrown at you eventually gets just as boring as a galaxy full of Shiny Happy People (this is the same kind of critique that I would level at some of the "character interaction" in the series: in best cases, it's absorbing; in worst cases, it's nothing more than forced and formulated bickering that makes you reach for the FFWD button), but in an age when too much television dialogue is written by dyslexics for aphasiacs to perform with the comatosed as the obvious target audience, I'm simply thankful that a series like Blake's 7 ever got made. 2. Basically the whole moral quagmire of it. Again, this goes beyond just the fact that there is no moralising and the line between good and bad is often wafer thin. I like the ideas that are sometimes stated in few episodes ("Star One" and "Blake", particularly), but more often suggested by the overall mood of the series. Ideas like that rising against oppression is vital and right, but still perhaps futile, that good people can and have to do terrible things to fight that kind of oppression but that they cannot just shrug away the ramifications of their actions but are brutalised in the process. And that in the end, "nobody is indispensable". 3. Characterisation. Yes, the characters are a big part of the show's endurance, though not the most vital one. Some of the more memorable characters (for different reasons) have come from this series, though I would hardly call it unique in this respect. Similarly, the incompatible group dynamic, the we're-all-in-this-together-so-shut-yer-gob-and-help-me-with-this theme is not original at all (though I like it), but B7's version is, at its best (largely the first two seasons, less so on the third and almost not at all in the fourth), cheerfully irreverant and devoid of too much uncomplicated competence in the face of adversity a'la Howard Hawks. But perhaps the most appealing and special feature about the characterisations of Blake's 7 is the attention, again in the best cases, given to non-regulars and small guest parts. Taking once again "Rumours of Death" as my example, the presence of Grenlee and Forres plays important part in elevating this episode for me, and though I'm moved by the tragedy of the ending (this being one of the few times that I can honestly say I feel sorry for Avon), it's their death that disturbs me more in successive screenings than that of Anna. Hence the characterisation has three facets that make up its appeal: (some) interesting individual characters, the turbulent groups their contrasts create and the little people who frame their stories (by usually getting trampled underfoot). <<[b] if you can think of them, one thing in each of just three episodes that somehow lifted that episode for you?>> 1. "Dawn of the Gods": [ZAP goes the salvage team] ORAC: Fascinating. ZEN: Confirmed. (Nicely understated, yet amusing little scene, and there is precious little else to recommend in this episode) 2. "Deathwatch": The staging and direction of the duel between Deeta and Vinni. If it wasn't for Gerald Blake's quasi-Sergio Leone-isms here, this episode wouldn't be half as good as it is. They cover up a multitude of sins. 3. "Trial": TRAVIS: Some of us weren't hypocrites, were we, Par? (This episode has lots of things to pick up, but somehow this small moment is the most memorable and evocative to me. Perhaps because it's because it so nicely flashes that somewhat twisted sense of Kameradschaft between Federation thuggish troopers. Perhaps it's because it is ambivalent and can be read in various ways in connection to several of the themes thrown around in the episode. Perhaps it's because its one of the best moments for Croucher's Travis.) Runners up: the look on Vila's face as he tries to steel himself to go to the teleport section in "Bounty" and Cally kicking Blake's arse in "Time Squad". Kai

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Re: evolution for predators? (was Terminal)
by Helen Krummenacker 09 May '01

09 May '01

> Maybe. But ask any conservationist which large > predators are not in danger of extinction by homo > sapiens. I'm pretty sure it would be a fairly short > list. > Off the top of my head, sharks? And they aren't land-based, so hardly compare to the Links.

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Re: moloch/limiters
by Helen Krummenacker 09 May '01

09 May '01

> >Ack! I shall defend my Oak Leaves (actually, was never awarded any > >despite thinking Gan's a slendid chap and arguing that Avon teaching > him > >about computers shows that snarky comments aside, the Snarly One > thought > >Gan showed potential as a student) > > > There was a scene in an early episode where Avon shows him a thing or > two > about computers, but there are also quite a number of times where Avon > clearly demonstrates his contempt for Gan's intelligence. For example: > When > they are looking for Orac in Shadow,Gan tells the crew that he even > called > out Orac's name. Avon replies, "That requires a degree of stupidity > that no > amount of training could match." > > What part of "Snarky comments aside" was unclear? I *am* aware of the oft quoted insults-- but then, Avon has insulted the intelligence of all of them at various times. Perhaps you beliueve that Avon's words always reveal true, deeply held convictions-- I prefer to scrutinize his actions. As for the dangerousness of Gan vs. Doran, I definitely did not make it clear that I meant that I thought the Federation was jumping to erroneous conclusions when they thought Gan was more dangerous than Doran to them. Also, almost everything mentioned (encouraging Vila to assualt Servalan, shooting guards) happens after the initial arrest. They apparently didn't realize what a beast he was. Or 2 other possibilities: during the big war, they lost a lot of surgeons and don't have anyone to spare to do the implants; alternately, he would have gotten the implant if he hadn't been diverted from surgery by the rogue group who were trying to build their own army. Obviously a man who could not kill would not suit them. In response to this: > >mad on at half the species, but he's also basically a coward and > won't > >be attacking women with rank and status. > > I haven't got this episode on video and I haven't see it in years, so > please > excuse me if I'm getting this wrong, but I don't remember Doran being > intimidated by women with rank and status, he even tries to encourage > Vila > to rape Servalan. > I need to clarify again... with current rank and status, which, we have seen in the past, means the woman usually has an armed escort. I meant he has physical cowardice and wouldn't risk being killed attacking, when there are so many unprotected women amid the lower ranks.

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Re: [B7L] Terminal (was: moloch/limiters)
by Jenny Kaye 08 May '01

08 May '01

Stephen wrote: > > >More simply why would natural selection > > consistently > > >favour link like traits against intelligence and > > not > > >ripping the head off anything you meet ? > > > > Perhaps they can outbreed and outfight the more > > intelligent specimens :-)? > >Maybe. But ask any conservationist which large >predators are not in danger of extinction by homo >sapiens. I'm pretty sure it would be a fairly short >list. But if they are descended from homo sapiens, all it would take would be for them to be more aggressive (and prolific) than the norm? > > Well, it was 1980 and SimCity was a few years off > > :-). But I'd imagine a > > live trial has the advantage that things could > > happen which the > > experimenters didn't predict-- a computer is only as > > good as its operator > > after all. > >But the initial parameters of the experiment would >have to be set by the experimenters. How would you >allow for things like, for example, the mass >extinctions at the end of the Permian era or the giant >meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs ? It should >also be remembered that human beings on different >planets would be subject to different selective >pressures. So human beings on Terminal might evolve >into Links, on Sardos they might evolve into Moloch, >elsewhere they might evolve into somewhere else. It's interesting that the show does seem to recognise this (as in Moloch), but it's also interesting that in both cases the outcome is undoubtedly nasty. Could it be that the story is saying that we're going to get worse whatever our environment (and that Servalan's statement is a general analogue rather than referring to the links alone)? >Incidentally civilisation ending on a diminuendo as a >doomed humanity descends into barbarism can be found >in Stapledon's First and Last men. I suppose that it's >possible that Nation adapted the idea. Quite possible-- IIRC it was an influential book. >I have to say I really >like the ending of Terminal as drama - as philosophy >and biology it's awful - Well that's social darwinism for you :-). >(apart from Servie not noticing the state the >Liberator was in) She does notice it-- she looks decidedly distressed at the state the place is in, but there isn't much she can do about it at that point, she's hardly going to go back down to Terminal. >If you haven't read the Plague you might like that >too. I'll take it out of the library sometime. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] No changes, please ...
by Tavia 08 May '01

08 May '01

Sally asked, some while back now: > [a] three things about Blake's 7 as a series that make it special for > them, and different from other shows? This was hard to answer, partly 'cos I watch so little other television, but... (1) Ambiguity: it's sometimes hard to tell the heroes and villains apart (2) Bleakness, loss, futility, tragedy (3) A geek with dress sense >[b] if you can think of them, one thing in each of just three >episodes that somehow lifted that episode for you? (1) Horizon: Avon in the rocky gully in silver top and thigh boots ('cos I'm shallow) (2) Shadow: Cally's exchange with the Space City security (not so much lifting the episode, as the character) (3) Traitor: The muddy vistas at the start (partly 'cos they're beautiful, but also 'cos they suggest what a mess war makes of the landscape) Tavia

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