Blakes7 February 2001

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80 participants
929 discussions

Re: [B7L] Torture
by B7Morrigan＠aol.com 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

I wrote: > >As I perceive it, the real focus in h-c is upon the relationship(s) > >between the other character(s) and the one who is hurt. Any > >marked change or growth occurs in the comforter's perspective > >of the one who is hurt. Tavia: > This is certainly one way of playing it, and it's what comes through in > those h/c stories of yours that I've read. However, as I recall from > discussions on TOL relating to your 'The Bargaining Chip', that wasn't the > way most B7 fans/writers understood the genre. "Bargaining Chip" most certainly emphasized that aspect of h-c but I've found it throughout fanfiction, both B7 and otherwise. I could probably provide examples if I gave this some time but off the top of my head, Sheila Paulson's work comes to mind as an example. > >By forcing the comforter (and sometimes other background characters) > >to reflect upon the character who has been hurt, ... > >In other words, h-c can be a bit of a soapbox for the author. > > This confused me... Why should anyone need to postulate injury to climb up > on a soapbox...? I might be misunderstanding but I don't see the need to > stab X in the lung to get Y to appreciate them. Tried and tested > substitutes short of lung-stabbing include X threatening to disappear (to > satellites) &c.... The injury and threat to the character's well-being elicits a protective reaction not found in the substitutes you cite. This emotional response is stronger than that elicited by X *choosing* to leave. Any appreciation by Y of X's sterling qualities and abilities is somewhat offset by the fact that X is either threatening to leave, has chosen to do so, or is otherwise consciously deciding something other than what Y would like. Y's own self-protective barriers would guard against that reaction. Can an author get Y to appreciate X without putting X in peril? Of course, but it's less direct and more difficult. Morrigan

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Gareth in the news
by Mac4781＠aol.com 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

There's a review of the Brunton production of HAMLET that fans of Gareth should especially appreciate. Go to the Edinburgh Evening News site--http://www.edinburghnews.com/--and do a search for "Hamlet." Carol Mc

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Re: [B7L] Torture
by Tavia Chalcraft 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

Morrigan wrote: >As I perceive it, the real focus in h-c is upon the relationship(s) >between the other character(s) and the one who is hurt. Any >marked change or growth occurs in the comforter's perspective >of the one who is hurt. This is certainly one way of playing it, and it's what comes through in those h/c stories of yours that I've read. However, as I recall from discussions on TOL relating to your 'The Bargaining Chip', that wasn't the way most B7 fans/writers understood the genre. >By forcing the comforter (and sometimes other background characters) >to reflect upon the character who has been hurt, ... >In other words, h-c can be a bit of a soapbox for the author. This confused me... Why should anyone need to postulate injury to climb up on a soapbox...? I might be misunderstanding but I don't see the need to stab X in the lung to get Y to appreciate them. Tried and tested substitutes short of lung-stabbing include X threatening to disappear (to satellites) &c.... Tavia

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Re: Deliverance (Meeghat)
by Helen Krummenacker 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

> > > I meant that, standing there in those robes acting all > > innocent, she's got Judaeo-Christian symbolism for > > "virginal" written all over her. Her actual state of > > virginity is a moot point. > I never thoguht about her sexual status at all. Tell me, would anyone think the episode was less misogynistic if, instead of acting innocent, Meeghat wiggled up to Avon, winked, told him she was wearing a thong and asked him if he was the lord come to help perpetuate her species? Okay, I think not. I think in that case, we would be agreeing on the rocket metaphor. So it's a *good* thing she wasn't sexualized, right? (I don't see the robes and her lack of sexual interest in any of the men to suggest "virginal" but I'm not a Christian)

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Re: [B7L] Subtext vs Character, or would Mr Humphries have pushed the right buttons?
by Natasa Tucev 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

Neil wrote: > >> I said >> before, I do think having *Avon* in the role subverts it quite nicely > >No. He might subvert our expectations of the way in which the power >relation is expressed, but he does not subvert the power relation itself. >He can't, any more than the cowboy can stop being a cowboy and become an >indian. He is trapped there. As are we all. This is not true. We are not irrevocably trapped within our social and cultural roles. One's whole being is not contained within one's culture. A whole book by L. Trilling, 'Beyond Culture' is dedicated to this question and it proves very convincingly that there is a residue of personality, however small, over which general culture doesn't hold sway, and which provides a standpoint for resisting this culture. This may be expressed in one's interest in other cultures, other traditions, whose set of societal or moral values is different and can be used for making subversive comparisons. One can also reach beyond culture by resorting to one's innermost core, instincts and feelings, or to the simple biological facts of life: your body is not a product of your society, and it is also you. (A good example of this is Orwell's W.Smith, who cannot compare his wretched living conditions with anything different in his experience, but feels in his bones and his stomach that everything around him is wrong.) > >A lot depends on how much importance you place on the differences. The >differences emerge from the particularities of the characters. The >similarities are rooted in something deeper and wider - ideology. If you >want to study the characters, then yes, you look at the differences. If >your attention is focussed on ideological values embedded within a text (eg, >to assess it in terms of its didacticism) , you turn to the common ground >and ignore the differences. They're too distracting. I disagree again. If you're looking for ideological values within the text you cannot ignore the characters. A lot of what an author is consciously or unconsciously trying to tell us is conveyed through his characters. A character may be a typical representative of a certain class or society if it suits the author's intentions. It is also possible that an author believes he has created a very unique character, but that said character is still stereotypical, because the author is not aware of his own ideological limitations. Some characters, however, are truly unique, and cannot be reduced to their (or the author's) social and class background. Stephen Dedalus is not just another middle-class Irishman who lives in Dublin at the turn of the century. He is a very unique person who rebels against a whole range of social and religious dogmas. If you miss the peculiarities of his character, you miss just about everything the author is trying to tell you. Likewise, Roj Blake is not just another alpha-grade engineer or whatever. The author uses his character to express a certain set of values and ideas - the invincibility of human spirit, humane attitudes, 'dreams worth having'. Didacticism or the author's world-view are also expressed through characters and their clashes and differences. N.

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Re: the "25% rule"
by Sally Manton 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

Helen wrote: <What always sticks out in my mind is how d*mn many times Blake needed Avon to bail him out.> Oh yes, but be fair, just about *everyone* got their turn at rescuing Fearless Leader, including people they never even met (Rashel, for instance). _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: torture & h/c
by Tavia Chalcraft 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

Fascinating discussion. I tend to dislike hurt/comfort as a B7 genre, unless it's done rather subtly. I think Neil is correct that one of its 'purposes' is to allow the writer and/or reader emotional closeness to usually distant characters, frequently Avon, though I've seen it done successfully with other characters, including Travis and Servalan, which might tend to support Neil's analysis. I'd agree that in this sense it's essentially a non-overtly sexualised version of slash. Personally, as a writer, I'd prefer to use other ways of gaining closeness to the character, the easiest being to use their point of view -- if you want to expose Avon's inner child then just walk right into his head and expose it.... Tavia

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Re: hurt/comfort
by Marian de Haan 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

Sorry, I can't recall who is quoted here: >> Well, for actual _physical_ suffering, I'll choose just about anyone rather than Avon, it seems. Whether I like his coping mechanisms or not, I think they're up to it.< I prefer to see Avon suffer physically rather than mentally, just *because* he's seems better able to cope with that :-) Actually, I'm not too fond of all that soppy mental suffering stuff, but oh, give me a juicy torture scene! (Medieval-like cellar with an old fashioned rack, that kind of thing - why didn't they *show* us Blake being tortured in Cygnus Alpha?) I can do without the comfort, though, as we don't see much of that in canon. With the exception of Vila, I can't remember any of the regulars ever showing a desire to be comforted. On the contrary, they all seem to prefer to suffer in silence and alone - that British stiff upper lip :-) Even Gan, who seems the most "ordinary" of the lot, prefers to take a painkiller in secret rather than tell the others that he's feeling unwell. That really leaves Vila as the only one who'd *want* to be comforted. Marian (who loves to see the blood drip from the screen and pages but can't stand the sight of it in Real Life :-) )

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RE: [B7L] characters vs interesting stuff
by Louise Rutter 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

Julia wrote: >Bugger not opening up that can of worms. It's too useful when we do want >to discuss personality, since it has that very useful I-E distinction. >Hands up all the I, and in particular INTx, types on the list who are >character junkies. Errr, that would be me too, I'm afraid. Not that I don't appreciate a plot (preferably a scientifically accurate one), but I'm not interested in reading purely action-adventure fic. And the fandoms that grab me and involve me are the ones with ambiguous characters, irrespective of what setting they happen to be in. Louise

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Re: [B7L] Avon's Leadership
by Ellynne G. 05 Feb '01

05 Feb '01

On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:31:56 -0700 Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> writes: > > <grin> the fact that under Ye Democratic System he seems to have > lost the > > vote more often than not couldn't have anything to do with his > decision, oh > > no no no ... > > Didn't stop George W Bush (grumble, grumble) (The following rant is largely political in nature and may be of limited interest to those more likely to read this list for B7 debates than American politics) Uh, in all due defense of Bush, he didn't invent the electoral college which, to be honest, like the Bill of Rights, was designed with the idea of balancing power among different interests and groups. On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:31:56 -0700 Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> writes: > > <grin> the fact that under Ye Democratic System he seems to have > lost the > > vote more often than not couldn't have anything to do with his > decision, oh > > no no no ... > > Didn't stop George W Bush (grumble, grumble) (The following rant is largely political in nature and may be of limited interest to those more likely to read this list for B7 debates than American politics) Uh, in all due defense of Bush, he didn't invent the electoral college which, to be honest, like the Bill of Rights, was designed with the idea of balancing power among different interests and groups. Nor did he challenge votes in other critical states where there are stories of widespread voter fraud (like Michigan). Nor did he whine and pout every time the recount went against him, finally resorting to arguments that recounts should focus on trying to guess voter intent. But only in places where Gore expected things to go his way. But then, I'm slightly prejudiced against the previous presidency, which managed to normalize every form of graft and corruption. I mean, if you can support the argument that, so long as the economy is good, rape, theft, bribery, selling national secrets, dropping bombs for PR, and a few other deficits of character don't matter, then you really can't argue that Blake had any reason to go against the Federation. Their economy seemed to be in excellent condition. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Blakes7 February 2001