Blakes7 December 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

67 participants
252 discussions

Re: Orac (was Blake bashing versus Avon worship (long))
by Sally Manton 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Nico suggested that Avon could have: <used Orac, the most powerful computer in the galaxy (human-controlled anyway) to hack into the Federation's IS systems and subvert them from within.> Well, so could Blake have done :-) Actually, since canon insists that [a] Blake didn't, [b] neither did Avon, [c] nor did any of the rest suggest it, and [d] there was no sign that Servalan and the Federation authorities were worried that they *could* ... IMO there has to be some reasonable reason why Orac was incapable of it. Do our techie people have any suggestions here? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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And the winners are...
by Lisa Williams 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Just in case any of you are waiting breathlessly to hear the results of the latest frame capture vote, the five winning episodes for this round are: Space Fall Duel Hostage Powerplay Harvest of Kairos Not a bad selection, though I may have to have a little chat with someone about that last one (and you know who you are.) It's nice to see a couple from first season working their way in, since that's been rather under-represented so far. - Lisa -- Lisa Williams: lisa(a)eroicafans.org or lcw(a)dallas.net Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://framecaplib.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroicafans.org/

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RE: [B7L] Re: Blake bashing versus Avon worship (long)
by Nicola Mody-Nikoloff 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Mel Saxby wrote: > Dana wrote: > > >Blake has faults, too, but they are more forgivable, IMO. Blake > > is flawed, yes, but he is fighting a great evil in the only > way he knows. > Speaking only for myself, it's the WAY he goes about it that > bothers me-- he needs structure. > > True. But Avon could have provided some of that, without > necessarily needing > to become a wholehearted believer in the cause. Avon provide structure? Blake achieved much more than Avon ever did. Do they even make one strike against the Federation in season 3? A little personal revenge which goes severely wrong is about it. Everything Avon attempts in season 4 is a failure except for getting the stardrive. Yet he could have: * given all resistance groups the pylene-50 antitoxin formula * blown Sleer's cover * used Orac, the most powerful computer in the galaxy (human-controlled anyway) to hack into the Federation's IS systems and subvert them from within. Nico *** This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. ***

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Re: Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Sally Manton 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Helen wrote: <Also, there are those here and in other fan groups who will deny any virtue in Avon's saving the others in Horizon, as an example of one of his better moments his fans enjoy. Blake has a hundred moments of heroism; Avon has only a few here and there-- when they are denied, his fans feel cheated.> You don't mention the biggie - Avon led the probably-suicidal (and certainly stupid from his own POV) fight that saved the galaxy. And with a minimum of fuss or self-aggrandisement, both at the time or later ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Blake Bashing v. Avon worship
by Sally Manton 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Mel wrote: <When I got to the early part of S4, I not only wanted to slap him, I wanted to strangle him as well. I found myself a bit surprised at the strength of my reaction to his throwing his weight about, and behaving in a somewhat tyrannical manner, his general don't-care attitude.> Oh but early S4 *is* a special case (now changing sides in order to defend Dark and Dysfunctional). Giving a damn about *anyone* else must seem even more like like crass stupidity after Anna/'Blake'/Cally ... < I think one of Avon's problems is that he wants the privileges of command - giving the orders, the control over who does what and when, and not having to take orders himself - but refuses to accept the necessary responsibilies which come as part of the package.> He certainly want not to have to take orders himself :-) but I doubt that he ever wanted any of the other aspects of being a leader, and he *certainly* never wanted to be leader himself, he does his level best to get out of it in S3, pointedly handing the job over to Tarrant, pointedly ceding to the everyone-votes business (till he got sick of being outvoted, of course). But Tarrant proved inadequate, Cally had gone all distant and deflated and wasn't up to it, Dayna was way too young and raw, and that left ... Vila. Or Orac. Avon finds the constraints and pressures of leadership quite painful, I think - like a straightjacket that's three sizes too small - and over time, it gets worse. He's stifled and worn down by it in a way he never expected when he said he wanted the ship (though not the crew). Give him some credit for taking that straightjacket on at all (neither of the other long-time crewembers were even willing to try). <But Avon *is* their leader, the only one they've got, they're pretty well stuck with him,> That's as much their fault as his. If he's poor leadership material, they're all worse (it seems good leaders are thin on the ground in the Federation - remember Servalan, in charge of a *huge* military organisation - moaning that maniacal Travis 2 is so much better than anyone she's got left) <and he should at least make an effort to act like one.> It's no *good* saying he ought to care about their welfare before his own, or put the group first - that's like saying Vila ought to be honest, or Dayna ought to let the past go and, if not forgive, then forget where Servalan is concerned. He genuinely doesn't know how to, not for most of the human race, not even for most of the crew. That's what makes it the odd case where he does it by pure instinct so memorable. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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RE: [B7L] Re: Vila's letters home
by Nicola Mody-Nikoloff 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > Sent: Friday, 30 November 2001 22:14 > To: blakes7(a)lists.lysator.liu.se > Subject: [B7L] Re: Vila's letters home > > > More, please, Ellynne? So long as they're not e-mails - I'm already doing those! Nico *** This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. ***

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Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Sally Manton 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Dear Rita I think you've misunderstood me and what I meant by 'mature' - I meant age-wise. My 'more mature list' was not a dig at Louise & Simon's list, truly (nor this, which is why I rather LOUDLY said '<ahem> more mature' instead of 'older' :-)) nor was I giving an opinion on the actual people on this, that or any other list (as Dr Who once said, what's the point in being an adult if you can't be childish once in a while?). Just that quite a few of the people on this list *have* been on this list for longer than quite a few other lists have even been going. And as I said, where the bashing-for-bashing's sake is concerned, I think (from reading the archives, I do do my homework :-)) there's less of it here and now. It used to be a intermittently recurring thread, and yes, maybe it's because people don't want want to upset fans of <insert name here> who've also been on the Lyst for years, or maybe it's because - as I said - there's an element of 'been there, done that'. Pure insult-swaps can be a bit of fun (I've weighed in with a few anti-Cally comments myself) but it *can* also get tedious and stifling over a longer time. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Helen Krummenacker 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

I said: <In short, we have lower expectations of Avon because he's told us what to expect from him. If Blake claims moral high ground, he has to act in a way to back that claim.> Sally said: Yes and no - there is probably *some* of this to the question, but it doesn't explain why, when Blake *does* live up to higher standards and do the Right Thing, he gets called [a] a boring goodie-goodie and [b] hypocritical, just doing it for reasons of manipulation and self-conceit (and yes, I have seen [a] and [b] argued simultaneously, Well, not having ever been to the forum that brought up this current discussion, I was only speaking for myself, and the reasons I am more apt to point out Avon's better moments, and Blake's lesser ones. It seems to me, additionally, that while Blake is more likely to meet with the approval of mainstream society, the fans attracted to this downbeat show are not so very mainstream in their evaluation of behavior. So they argue against a mainstream interpretation, and it becomes redundant as they argue as if they are a minority in a place where they are the majority. Wording is stronger than needed to convey the basic idea of feeling uncomfortable with some of Blake's choices and being nonjudgemental of Avon except when his actions are... irrationally detrimental to others? Among non-fans I have spoken to, Avon is universally criticized as a selfish bastard with not one tenth of the tactical sense of Blake. To the majority who have seen episodes but not become followers of the show, he's completely devoid of compassion, morals, etc. So I think fans try to counterbalance that perception, and bring those arguements here. Also, there are those here and in other fan groups who will deny any virtue in Avon's saving the others in Horizon, as an example of one of his better moments his fans enjoy. Blake has a hundred moments of heroism; Avon has only a few here and there-- when they are denied, his fans feel cheated. Some of the more biazarre arguements against Blake may be an attempt to put the show on the other foot.

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Blake Bashing v. Avon worship
by Mel Saxby 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

I love Avon. I admire his better qualities - particularly his steely nerve in a crisis, and his courage (being a wimpy sort myself) - and I find him attractive, but I frequently find him very difficult to like. Whereas I always liked Blake. I noticed this particularly during re-watching the whole series on video from start to finish after a long period of absence from B7. I found myself being more strongly drawn to Blake than I had been in the past while, fond of him though I am, occasionally wanting to slap Avon. When I got to the early part of S4, I not only wanted to slap him, I wanted to strangle him as well. I found myself a bit surprised at the strength of my reaction to his throwing his weight about, and behaving in a somewhat tyrannical manner, his general don't-care attitude. I got very angry with him, in fact. I think one of Avon's problems is that he wants the privileges of command - giving the orders, the control over who does what and when, and not having to take orders himself - but refuses to accept the necessary responsibilies which come as part of the package. He ducks his responsibilities by calling the crew his 'associates', implying they are all free agents. Tarrant even goes along with this, in 'Assassin'. But Avon *is* their leader, the only one they've got, they're pretty well stuck with him, and he should at least make an effort to act like one. Blake always managed to draw people in, creating a workable team out of a group of misfits and oddballs. Avon does the opposite. It isn't entirely his fault, he's a loner, not really great leadership material despite his intelligence and resourcefulness, and he's been through some fairly hellish experiences losing Cally and Liberator, and finding Anna. But blake had lost everything, including quite possibly large parts of his memory, and still accepts that the other side of authority over others, however assumed, is a responsibility towards them. Blake's not as glamorous as Avon, and he's got the hardest job. He doesn't get it right all the time, but he keeps at it, and doesn't dodge the flak when it comes. I may not drool over him, but I like him and admire him. Mel --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01

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Re: bashing
by Steve Rogerson 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Dana wrote: "*I* think that L&S contains much unjustified Avon-bashing." But in the Big Brother game just played there, Avon won, which suggests a lot of Avon fans too. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Blakes7 December 2001