Hello there,
I wanted to drop a note that recent thread about IPv6 support and Pike, has a bad result (for me, for all the rest of Pike devel team I dunno).
Marek has decided he will stop to commit, submit patches and even participate in pike development, he removed all his mails from all Pike related mailing lists (pike / pike-devel / roxen) and will only maintaint debian pike package.
Everybody here may think about that. Not the fact that some good pike developper goes away, but the fact that the Pike Community (sic) is maybe (personnaly I am allmost sure) too mutch elitist maybe no soo opened as it claims to.
What is the main problem with Pike : too small community, too less documentation, too mutch skill is needed to join into it.
Why do I say that : I discovered Spinner in early 96.... I took 6 years to under some Pike coding and how to make some C modules. On others languages (says Perl, Python, ...) it is far more easy to get a good skill in months instead of years......
Why we can't promote Pike ? - lack of docs - too mutch obscure things - sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility - it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
I am allmost fed up myself with some behavior of Pike people... that I have decided to make my own things in my projects instead of giving my code to Pike community (eg some of this code are now in _Caudium module inside Caudium 1.3).... You can say it is sad, but when I send messages to pike devel ml some of them are thrashed, others are ignored or flammed.
Now Pike Community loose one of their member.... Maybe others members can come RSN....
/Xavier
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:31:39PM +0200, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Why we can't promote Pike ?
- sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility
IMHO, it is not a good idea to support outdated and rare platforms which are in use by two or three individuals on the planet... But of course it is cool to say that Pike supports 50+ platforms (instead of pulling out support for something that is obsoleted or extremely rare).
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team. Why? "Nobody needs it" and "It is more simple to embed Apache into Pike", or even - "Why one needs Apache when there is Roxen?" :)
You can say it is sad, but when I send messages to pike devel ml some of them are thrashed, others are ignored or flammed.
I agree. It happens too often. The main problem of Pike team is - what they don't need is not going into Pike. A lot of excuses given, including "lack of documentation" or "lack of portability" (depsite the fact that some parts of core is not well documented, and some parts of core are extremely ineffective).
This is something that usually called "Not invented here" syndrome. Sad, but this is true.
Actually, what you say - are my thoughs, but it was so obvious that I didn't bother to share my opinion with someone. Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
What I do here then? I read. I want to be "in touch" - just in case. Perhaps, one day the Pike team will change their attitude...
Regards, /Al
IMHO, it is not a good idea to support outdated and rare platforms which are in use by two or three individuals on the planet... But of course it is cool to say that Pike supports 50+ platforms (instead of pulling out support for something that is obsoleted or extremely rare).
Last time I checked win32 was neiter obsoleted, nor extremly rare.
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team.
Interesting notion. It contradicts what jhs said in this forum just a few weeks ago.
/ Peter Bortas
Previous text:
2003-04-24 22:24: Subject: Re: Sad.....
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:31:39PM +0200, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Why we can't promote Pike ?
- sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility
IMHO, it is not a good idea to support outdated and rare platforms which are in use by two or three individuals on the planet... But of course it is cool to say that Pike supports 50+ platforms (instead of pulling out support for something that is obsoleted or extremely rare).
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team. Why? "Nobody needs it" and "It is more simple to embed Apache into Pike", or even - "Why one needs Apache when there is Roxen?" :)
You can say it is sad, but when I send messages to pike devel ml some of them are thrashed, others are ignored or flammed.
I agree. It happens too often. The main problem of Pike team is - what they don't need is not going into Pike. A lot of excuses given, including "lack of documentation" or "lack of portability" (depsite the fact that some parts of core is not well documented, and some parts of core are extremely ineffective).
This is something that usually called "Not invented here" syndrome. Sad, but this is true.
Actually, what you say - are my thoughs, but it was so obvious that I didn't bother to share my opinion with someone. Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
What I do here then? I read. I want to be "in touch" - just in case. Perhaps, one day the Pike team will change their attitude...
Regards, /Al
/ Brevbäraren
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 10:30:01PM +0200, Peter Bortas @ Pike developers forum wrote:
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team.
Interesting notion. It contradicts what jhs said in this forum just a few weeks ago.
It was said few years ago as well. Nothing changed. So I will believe in this once it will be implemented :)
Regards, /Al
- sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility
IMHO, it is not a good idea to support outdated and rare platforms which are in use by two or three individuals on the planet...
Being able to compile on outdated and rare platforms is in itself of little value. It does however pay off every time there is a brand new platform we want to support. E.g. we have fairly good support for 64 bit architechtures thanks to our support for rare platforms. Though I am not sure Xavier meant portability.
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team. Why? "Nobody needs it"
Well, its on top of my wishlist.
/ Martin Nilsson (har bott i google)
Previous text:
2003-04-24 22:24: Subject: Re: Sad.....
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:31:39PM +0200, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Why we can't promote Pike ?
- sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility
IMHO, it is not a good idea to support outdated and rare platforms which are in use by two or three individuals on the planet... But of course it is cool to say that Pike supports 50+ platforms (instead of pulling out support for something that is obsoleted or extremely rare).
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team. Why? "Nobody needs it" and "It is more simple to embed Apache into Pike", or even - "Why one needs Apache when there is Roxen?" :)
You can say it is sad, but when I send messages to pike devel ml some of them are thrashed, others are ignored or flammed.
I agree. It happens too often. The main problem of Pike team is - what they don't need is not going into Pike. A lot of excuses given, including "lack of documentation" or "lack of portability" (depsite the fact that some parts of core is not well documented, and some parts of core are extremely ineffective).
This is something that usually called "Not invented here" syndrome. Sad, but this is true.
Actually, what you say - are my thoughs, but it was so obvious that I didn't bother to share my opinion with someone. Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
What I do here then? I read. I want to be "in touch" - just in case. Perhaps, one day the Pike team will change their attitude...
Regards, /Al
/ Brevbäraren
There is obviously a lot of sadness plown down in this. I will try not to come down on misconceptions, but still address some of the issues I feel are important to note. With my insight into the thoughts of the people over here, I'd at least hope to shorten the distances a bit.
I agree. It happens too often. The main problem of Pike team is
- what they don't need is not going into Pike.
Let me rephrase that a bit, from my own perspective. Something I have little or no experience with, is not something I would hack into Pike myself. Not because I am evil, but because I have other work to do and because the result would be substandard to what a more knowledgeable person would achieve. If such a person would want to volunteer to do the work, though, I would do my share of helping him achieve that. (I believe many of you might recall having a few mail roundtrips with me about ssh keys, account names and the like.)
The same goes for most of the guys here; they all have their own business to attend to, and do what they can with the resources they have and time they can afford to help out. Some take part in the discussions here, some do a lot of silent work behind the scenes, fixing bugs shown by pikefarm or cleaning up code and filling holes in the autodocs. The point here, is that the development is driven by the guy that does something - not by a core team that has an overview of all things people want, and a work alottment to spread over them, in some fashion to their own liking. No community project I am aware of works that way, for that matter.
A lot of excuses given, including "lack of documentation" or "lack of portability" (depsite the fact that some parts of core is not well documented, and some parts of core are extremely ineffective).
For starters, lack of documentation is, I believe, the top most common complaint about Pike, and hence we have clearly marked documentation as mandatory for any and all people who want to commit code to Pike.
As for the core, which still lacks lots of documentation, we try our best to fill the blanks. The extremely ineffective parts in the core would probably benefit from being exposed, if you have such knowledge. For all I know, you might be on to something nobody else is aware of.
The lack of portability has not been an excuse to forbid anything so far. The contributions from Nilsson and Agehall to the recent thread about portability were aiming to help add the scaffoldings to make new additions not break platforms where they don't work. While we all like code that works everywhere, all new pike code does not have to use the smallest common denominator of platform/OS support. We do however make use of autoconf and ifdefs, so pike does not break when run in such environments where the code does not work. This is a rather lax demand when compared to the utopia of complete portability.
[...] I didn't bother to share my opinion with someone. Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
Please do not mistake silence for being ignored. When asking questions about a complex subject, chances are nobody knows the answers, nor have the time and knowledge to dig them up. It is unfortunate, but I think this was just what happened in the SSL case.
/ Johan Sundström (folkskådare)
Previous text:
2003-04-24 22:24: Subject: Re: Sad.....
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:31:39PM +0200, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Why we can't promote Pike ?
- sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility
IMHO, it is not a good idea to support outdated and rare platforms which are in use by two or three individuals on the planet... But of course it is cool to say that Pike supports 50+ platforms (instead of pulling out support for something that is obsoleted or extremely rare).
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team. Why? "Nobody needs it" and "It is more simple to embed Apache into Pike", or even - "Why one needs Apache when there is Roxen?" :)
You can say it is sad, but when I send messages to pike devel ml some of them are thrashed, others are ignored or flammed.
I agree. It happens too often. The main problem of Pike team is - what they don't need is not going into Pike. A lot of excuses given, including "lack of documentation" or "lack of portability" (depsite the fact that some parts of core is not well documented, and some parts of core are extremely ineffective).
This is something that usually called "Not invented here" syndrome. Sad, but this is true.
Actually, what you say - are my thoughs, but it was so obvious that I didn't bother to share my opinion with someone. Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
What I do here then? I read. I want to be "in touch" - just in case. Perhaps, one day the Pike team will change their attitude...
Regards, /Al
/ Brevbäraren
This is something that usually called "Not invented here" syndrome. Sad, but this is true.
There has been some truth in that historically, but has it continued after the move to IDA? There hasn't been that many suggestions from outside the old "core gang" since then. Some have been opposed since they aren't viable (notably your wish to introduce unsigned native integers). Most have been discussed and considered ok by consensus and it's just a matter of someone actually getting started on it (e.g. fixing embedding and a good ABI, adding the PCRE glue, finishing up the security system, adding glue for some XML/SAX/DOM/XSLT library). Some of those were perhaps held off for a while to allow a 7.4 release first. Some have been both discussed and implemented (e.g. SDL and Audio).
However this last IPv6 patch issue can probably be considered an example of that attitude. Personally I think it was a bit harsh of Nilsson to revert the patch, at least that soon after applying it.
/.../ Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
You're not alone in being met by silence; it has happened to me too several times. It's usually an indication that noone consider himself knowledgeable enough to provide a useful comment on the issue. Remember that there are parts that have been developed by people that aren't very active anymore, so it might be that noone knows anything about it. That means that your opinion is currently the most initiated one, and if you have a solution it's clearly the best one available so you should feel free to commit it.
/ Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS
Previous text:
2003-04-24 22:24: Subject: Re: Sad.....
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:31:39PM +0200, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Why we can't promote Pike ?
- sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility
IMHO, it is not a good idea to support outdated and rare platforms which are in use by two or three individuals on the planet... But of course it is cool to say that Pike supports 50+ platforms (instead of pulling out support for something that is obsoleted or extremely rare).
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
And it will never be, I believe. At least it will not be done by the Pike team. Why? "Nobody needs it" and "It is more simple to embed Apache into Pike", or even - "Why one needs Apache when there is Roxen?" :)
You can say it is sad, but when I send messages to pike devel ml some of them are thrashed, others are ignored or flammed.
I agree. It happens too often. The main problem of Pike team is - what they don't need is not going into Pike. A lot of excuses given, including "lack of documentation" or "lack of portability" (depsite the fact that some parts of core is not well documented, and some parts of core are extremely ineffective).
This is something that usually called "Not invented here" syndrome. Sad, but this is true.
Actually, what you say - are my thoughs, but it was so obvious that I didn't bother to share my opinion with someone. Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
What I do here then? I read. I want to be "in touch" - just in case. Perhaps, one day the Pike team will change their attitude...
Regards, /Al
/ Brevbäraren
Personally I think it was a bit harsh of Nilsson to revert the patch, at least that soon after applying it.
I still think it was the right thing to do. Since I applied the patch it was my responsibility to make sure the tree was OK afterwards. Sure, I could have asked more people than Marek to fix the source, but I thought that we were near the release of Pike 7.4 and thought people had more important things to fix than new code.
/ Martin Nilsson (har bott i google)
Previous text:
2003-04-25 00:32: Subject: Re: Sad.....
This is something that usually called "Not invented here" syndrome. Sad, but this is true.
There has been some truth in that historically, but has it continued after the move to IDA? There hasn't been that many suggestions from outside the old "core gang" since then. Some have been opposed since they aren't viable (notably your wish to introduce unsigned native integers). Most have been discussed and considered ok by consensus and it's just a matter of someone actually getting started on it (e.g. fixing embedding and a good ABI, adding the PCRE glue, finishing up the security system, adding glue for some XML/SAX/DOM/XSLT library). Some of those were perhaps held off for a while to allow a 7.4 release first. Some have been both discussed and implemented (e.g. SDL and Audio).
However this last IPv6 patch issue can probably be considered an example of that attitude. Personally I think it was a bit harsh of Nilsson to revert the patch, at least that soon after applying it.
/.../ Especially after last experience (related to SSL stuff - I asked a question and it was completely ignored, despite that it is a serious flaw).
You're not alone in being met by silence; it has happened to me too several times. It's usually an indication that noone consider himself knowledgeable enough to provide a useful comment on the issue. Remember that there are parts that have been developed by people that aren't very active anymore, so it might be that noone knows anything about it. That means that your opinion is currently the most initiated one, and if you have a solution it's clearly the best one available so you should feel free to commit it.
/ Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS
On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 12:35:04AM +0200, Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS @ Pike developers forum wrote:
You're not alone in being met by silence; it has happened to me too several times. It's usually an indication that noone consider himself knowledgeable enough to provide a useful comment on the issue.
However, I asked directly - is someone working on it or not, to help me make a decision. Still - I got no answer. Actually, only 2 days ago, I got an information (from Martin) that the person who is responsible for SSL code is not in charge anymore. Was it too difficult to answer the question "Is someone on it or not?". How else I would know that no one is working on this issue?
Regards, /Al
It would be hard for me anyway since I don't know that noone reading your message can provide any useful info.
/ Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS
Previous text:
2003-04-25 03:38: Subject: Re: Sad.....
On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 12:35:04AM +0200, Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS @ Pike developers forum wrote:
You're not alone in being met by silence; it has happened to me too several times. It's usually an indication that noone consider himself knowledgeable enough to provide a useful comment on the issue.
However, I asked directly - is someone working on it or not, to help me make a decision. Still - I got no answer. Actually, only 2 days ago, I got an information (from Martin) that the person who is responsible for SSL code is not in charge anymore. Was it too difficult to answer the question "Is someone on it or not?". How else I would know that no one is working on this issue?
Regards, /Al
/ Brevbäraren
I do not believe the main problems with Pike and the Pike development is "lack of docs", "too mutch obscure things", "sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility" or "it is NOT embeddable". The main problem is that the developers clearly have dug themselves some deep trenches. Every month or so they charge the other side in a never ending flame war.
It is fairly clear that the trenches are drawn by the Roxen/Caudium split. The flame war will not end until the bad feelings caused by that split has been mended. The method that has been employed for this - not speaking about it and trying to cooperate on other things, while each side still believes they were and are 100% right - will not get the job done.
I believe very few people will join the Pike community while this continues. It is simply not a fun work environment.
/ Mattias Wingstedt (Firefruit)
Previous text:
2003-04-24 21:32: Subject: Sad.....
Hello there,
I wanted to drop a note that recent thread about IPv6 support and Pike, has a bad result (for me, for all the rest of Pike devel team I dunno).
Marek has decided he will stop to commit, submit patches and even participate in pike development, he removed all his mails from all Pike related mailing lists (pike / pike-devel / roxen) and will only maintaint debian pike package.
Everybody here may think about that. Not the fact that some good pike developper goes away, but the fact that the Pike Community (sic) is maybe (personnaly I am allmost sure) too mutch elitist maybe no soo opened as it claims to.
What is the main problem with Pike : too small community, too less documentation, too mutch skill is needed to join into it.
Why do I say that : I discovered Spinner in early 96.... I took 6 years to under some Pike coding and how to make some C modules. On others languages (says Perl, Python, ...) it is far more easy to get a good skill in months instead of years......
Why we can't promote Pike ?
- lack of docs
- too mutch obscure things
- sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility
- it is NOT embeddable.... (so we can't make a mod_pike for apache).
I am allmost fed up myself with some behavior of Pike people... that I have decided to make my own things in my projects instead of giving my code to Pike community (eg some of this code are now in _Caudium module inside Caudium 1.3).... You can say it is sad, but when I send messages to pike devel ml some of them are thrashed, others are ignored or flammed.
Now Pike Community loose one of their member.... Maybe others members can come RSN....
/Xavier
/ Brevbäraren
Le jeudi, 24 avr 2003, à 23:20 Europe/Paris, Mattias Wingstedt (Firefruit) @ Pike (-) developers forum a écrit :
I do not believe the main problems with Pike and the Pike development is "lack of docs", "too mutch obscure things", "sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility" or "it is NOT embeddable". The main problem is that the developers clearly have dug themselves some deep trenches. Every month or so they charge the other side in a never ending flame war.
Yes.
It is fairly clear that the trenches are drawn by the Roxen/Caudium split. The flame war will not end until the bad feelings caused by that split has been mended. The method that has been employed for this
- not speaking about it and trying to cooperate on other things, while
each side still believes they were and are 100% right - will not get the job done.
I really think that people must make the difference between
Pike, Roxen which is made with Pike Caudium which is also made with Pike (+ some C)
Despite the reason why Caudium is born and how it was announced, I really want that Pike should both supported by Roxen and Caudium.
I, as Caudium Maintainer, don't want to make Caudium as "concurent" software to Roxen (2.x, 3.x branch and even newer). Maybe adding if possible some compatibility code for supporting a limiting number of features from Roxen 2.x/3.x that are interressing in point of vue "end user" or even as programming way.
I believe very few people will join the Pike community while this continues. It is simply not a fun work environment.
I totaly agree. and I'll really hope this will stop one time or... all Pike related project will dies because of lack of interrest from Pike community.
/Xavier
I believe very few people will join the Pike community while this continues. It is simply not a fun work environment.
I totaly agree. and I'll really hope this will stop one time or... all Pike related project willdies because of lack of interrest from Pike community.
Agreeing with everything said above (also most (or all) of the specific things mentioned before in this thread) I'd also like to add something: a lot of people here are insensitive clods.
I don't really belive this, having met a few of the people in real life, but that is how they are percieved. They're interresting people, but they're sometimes bad at communicating in writing. Things come out more harsh than needed and scepticism (which is a good quality) comes too soon - in effect discouraging people who want to contribute or just throw out an idea for discussion.
/ Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt)
Previous text:
2003-04-24 23:38: Subject: Re: Sad.....
Le jeudi, 24 avr 2003, à 23:20 Europe/Paris, Mattias Wingstedt (Firefruit) @ Pike (-) developers forum a écrit :
I do not believe the main problems with Pike and the Pike development is "lack of docs", "too mutch obscure things", "sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility" or "it is NOT embeddable". The main problem is that the developers clearly have dug themselves some deep trenches. Every month or so they charge the other side in a never ending flame war.
Yes.
It is fairly clear that the trenches are drawn by the Roxen/Caudium split. The flame war will not end until the bad feelings caused by that split has been mended. The method that has been employed for this
- not speaking about it and trying to cooperate on other things, while
each side still believes they were and are 100% right - will not get the job done.
I really think that people must make the difference between
Pike, Roxen which is made with Pike Caudium which is also made with Pike (+ some C)
Despite the reason why Caudium is born and how it was announced, I really want that Pike should both supported by Roxen and Caudium.
I, as Caudium Maintainer, don't want to make Caudium as "concurent" software to Roxen (2.x, 3.x branch and even newer). Maybe adding if possible some compatibility code for supporting a limiting number of features from Roxen 2.x/3.x that are interressing in point of vue "end user" or even as programming way.
I believe very few people will join the Pike community while this continues. It is simply not a fun work environment.
I totaly agree. and I'll really hope this will stop one time or... all Pike related project will dies because of lack of interrest from Pike community.
/Xavier
/ Brevbäraren
Also I know for a fact how some people here are way too sensitive in how they parse things written and get very upset about it and go off on a tirade about whatever (often simply due to a misunderstanding or lack of ability to "read the emotions" of a message).
/ David Hedbor
Previous text:
2003-04-25 00:22: Subject: Re: Sad.....
I believe very few people will join the Pike community while this continues. It is simply not a fun work environment.
I totaly agree. and I'll really hope this will stop one time or... all Pike related project willdies because of lack of interrest from Pike community.
Agreeing with everything said above (also most (or all) of the specific things mentioned before in this thread) I'd also like to add something: a lot of people here are insensitive clods.
I don't really belive this, having met a few of the people in real life, but that is how they are percieved. They're interresting people, but they're sometimes bad at communicating in writing. Things come out more harsh than needed and scepticism (which is a good quality) comes too soon - in effect discouraging people who want to contribute or just throw out an idea for discussion.
/ Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt)
Agreed.
/ Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt)
Previous text:
2003-04-25 00:31: Subject: Re: Sad.....
Also I know for a fact how some people here are way too sensitive in how they parse things written and get very upset about it and go off on a tirade about whatever (often simply due to a misunderstanding or lack of ability to "read the emotions" of a message).
/ David Hedbor
That's funny. I see now that I always subconsciously tended to explain this away as a case of culture clash: that attitudes and commentary felt as perfectly neutral by "Scandinavians" who make up the core Pike/Roxen team might easily be perceived as harsh and sometimes outright hostile by those of us born and raised more "down South", and that this has no remedy other than making an effort to ignore this "impedance mismatch" and to focus on the merits of each issue instead. Sorry for dragging out the old tired stereotypes ;-) But your opinion, and others voiced here, indicate there's more to it than that.
/ rjb
Previous text:
2003-04-25 00:22: Subject: Re: Sad.....
I believe very few people will join the Pike community while this continues. It is simply not a fun work environment.
I totaly agree. and I'll really hope this will stop one time or... all Pike related project willdies because of lack of interrest from Pike community.
Agreeing with everything said above (also most (or all) of the specific things mentioned before in this thread) I'd also like to add something: a lot of people here are insensitive clods.
I don't really belive this, having met a few of the people in real life, but that is how they are percieved. They're interresting people, but they're sometimes bad at communicating in writing. Things come out more harsh than needed and scepticism (which is a good quality) comes too soon - in effect discouraging people who want to contribute or just throw out an idea for discussion.
/ Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt)
I must say to me it seems to a large degree that the "Roxen" side are still grumpu about Caudium sometimes, but overall I main see a few people that just can't forget and continue. I won't name names, but there's not THAT many people here that are holding out in trenches.
I, being the main reason for that split to begin with, would laughing at the petty arguments here, if it wasn't for the fact that in the end it DOES hurt pike, or at least peoples perception of Pike. He're some FUD from the "Caudium side":
- It's impossible to get new code into Pike, if the "core" doesn't want it. This is simply not true at all. Sure, EVERYTHING will not get in, but heck, SDL is, DVB is (that's like, what, a 1 user module?).
- If Caudium exposes a bug in Pike, the "core" doesn't care or don't want to fix it. Not true. However often these bug reports are vague and hard to repeat and more importantly might not be the fault of the core of Pike to begin with (for example, the latest Caudium 1.3 crashing with Pike 7.4 - has any debugging been done to make sure this isn't infact Caudium specific code, such as the _Caudium module). The overall idea with pike is tha CRASH (segfault) == BAD => should be fixed. However reasonable effort needs to be done to determine what crashes. I.e compile pike with --with-dmalloc or run it with valgrind (if that works now - didn't use to). This goes for all crashbugs.
- "fix the problems you caused" isn't a way of saying "we hate you go die" but rather "if you break it, fix it".
This whole thread is getting to a point where I'm actually considering filtering it, like I have filtered stuff here before.
Blah.
/ David Hedbor
Previous text:
2003-04-24 23:16: Subject: Sad.....
I do not believe the main problems with Pike and the Pike development is "lack of docs", "too mutch obscure things", "sometimes compatibilty is not really compatibility" or "it is NOT embeddable". The main problem is that the developers clearly have dug themselves some deep trenches. Every month or so they charge the other side in a never ending flame war.
It is fairly clear that the trenches are drawn by the Roxen/Caudium split. The flame war will not end until the bad feelings caused by that split has been mended. The method that has been employed for this
- not speaking about it and trying to cooperate on other things, while
each side still believes they were and are 100% right - will not get the job done.
I believe very few people will join the Pike community while this continues. It is simply not a fun work environment.
/ Mattias Wingstedt (Firefruit)
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 11:20:04PM +0200, Mattias Wingstedt (Firefruit) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
It is fairly clear that the trenches are drawn by the Roxen/Caudium split. The flame war will not end until the bad feelings caused by that split has been mended.
this is not true. there is no split. there are some people that imagine a split, but the split is not there.
now of course i could be wrong, and maybe there is a split, and i just don't see it.
the problem is indeed here:
each side still believes they were and are 100% right - will not get the job done.
but this problem is unrelated to any caudium/roxen differences.
greetings, martin.
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Everybody here may think about that. Not the fact that some good pike developper goes away, but the fact that the Pike Community (sic) is maybe (personnaly I am allmost sure) too mutch elitist maybe no soo opened as it claims to.
The thread about the Pike error was in my opinion a good example about a too mutch elitist point of view. Ok it is maybe the smartest errors message on earth but if you are a newbie (or even not so newbie...) it is very hard to understand them well. Nothing is perfect, you always have to make some compromises.
What is the main problem with Pike : too small community, too less documentation, too mutch skill is needed to join into it.
Why do I say that : I discovered Spinner in early 96.... I took 6 years to under some Pike coding and how to make some C modules.
I know Pike since 2 years now and I can't say it was hard to understand. The documentaion was enough at least for a basic usage, for writing C modules it was more difficult but since then there have been a good doc about that (thanks Andreas Finnman) and I got the help I needed on IRC.
Another reason why the community is small IMHO is the reinvent the wheel and not use what the other use behaviour. For example why Pike core developers are not on IRC ? Every new comer will look for an IRC channel, look at #caudium, #php, #python, #perl, #debian... IRC might sucks a lot compared to other things but be pragmatic, you will have more newbie on IRC. There are sometimes poeple asking pike only questions on #caudium. Same goes for SSL. Why not making a glue to OpenSSL and dropping the current SSL code, Parser.HTML|XML ?
Finally I want to say Pike is really a good language and lot of work has been put into it, thank to you. So it's not because I said this that I said everything/poeple are bad, I just say it can be a lot better with a few changes in the mind and without any lot of efforts.
For example why Pike core developers are not on IRC ?
Good question. That would be easy enough to rememdy if there were any ppl developing/using pike that actaully use IRC. A lot of people here strongly prefer KOM for these sort of discussions, something I too preach. IRC is for idleing/wasting time.
OTOH - if there was a #pike somewhere, I'd probably be idleing there too.
/ Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt)
Previous text:
2003-04-25 00:51: Subject: Re: Sad.....
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Everybody here may think about that. Not the fact that some good pike developper goes away, but the fact that the Pike Community (sic) is maybe (personnaly I am allmost sure) too mutch elitist maybe no soo opened as it claims to.
The thread about the Pike error was in my opinion a good example about a too mutch elitist point of view. Ok it is maybe the smartest errors message on earth but if you are a newbie (or even not so newbie...) it is very hard to understand them well. Nothing is perfect, you always have to make some compromises.
What is the main problem with Pike : too small community, too less documentation, too mutch skill is needed to join into it.
Why do I say that : I discovered Spinner in early 96.... I took 6 years to under some Pike coding and how to make some C modules.
I know Pike since 2 years now and I can't say it was hard to understand. The documentaion was enough at least for a basic usage, for writing C modules it was more difficult but since then there have been a good doc about that (thanks Andreas Finnman) and I got the help I needed on IRC.
Another reason why the community is small IMHO is the reinvent the wheel and not use what the other use behaviour. For example why Pike core developers are not on IRC ? Every new comer will look for an IRC channel, look at #caudium, #php, #python, #perl, #debian... IRC might sucks a lot compared to other things but be pragmatic, you will have more newbie on IRC. There are sometimes poeple asking pike only questions on #caudium. Same goes for SSL. Why not making a glue to OpenSSL and dropping the current SSL code, Parser.HTML|XML ?
Finally I want to say Pike is really a good language and lot of work has been put into it, thank to you. So it's not because I said this that I said everything/poeple are bad, I just say it can be a lot better with a few changes in the mind and without any lot of efforts.
-- David Gourdelier
/ Brevbäraren
unfortunately, kom is just as out of the world as some claim the pike developers are. nobody outside sweden uses kom. there are no sensible clients, except one for emacs. (thanks, but no thanks)
it is you who need to make the effort to use communication tools everybody else uses, instead of forcing everybody to do it your way. the latter is fine when people are joining in flocks anyways and there is trouble to keep them back, but it hurts when it is hard enough to get volunteers as it stands.
for #pike probably the best place is the caudium irc network. if you need it, maybe irc.pike-community.org can be set up as a hostname to point to one of the networks servers. that could then be advertized on the pike site.
greetings, martin.
it is you who need to make the effort to use communication tools everybody else uses, instead of forcing everybody to do it your way.
It could be noted that the primary pike communications channel, where this discussion is taking place, is bridged to the not all unfamiliar tool email, but it might spoil the bad mood a bit.
Doing something constructive here is dead easy. Say you would like to use IRC for discussing pike, having a place to hang and chat with pike people. The way of achieving that is to decide on a network, make that #pike channel and announce the location.
If that gives little results, you could try doing the equivalent of what Hedda & c:o did for pike-dev and gateway roxenchat (where some pike people hang regularly) to IRC. Some social issues *can* be solved with technology. The climate needs human attention, though.
/ Johan Sundström (folkskådare)
Previous text:
2003-04-25 01:35: Subject: Re: Sad.....
unfortunately, kom is just as out of the world as some claim the pike developers are. nobody outside sweden uses kom. there are no sensible clients, except one for emacs. (thanks, but no thanks)
it is you who need to make the effort to use communication tools everybody else uses, instead of forcing everybody to do it your way. the latter is fine when people are joining in flocks anyways and there is trouble to keep them back, but it hurts when it is hard enough to get volunteers as it stands.
for #pike probably the best place is the caudium irc network. if you need it, maybe irc.pike-community.org can be set up as a hostname to point to one of the networks servers. that could then be advertized on the pike site.
greetings, martin.
/ Brevbäraren
Le vendredi, 25 avr 2003, à 02:45 Europe/Paris, Johan Sundström (folkskådare) @ Pike (-) developers forum a écrit :
it is you who need to make the effort to use communication tools everybody else uses, instead of forcing everybody to do it your way.
It could be noted that the primary pike communications channel, where this discussion is taking place, is bridged to the not all unfamiliar tool email, but it might spoil the bad mood a bit.
Doing something constructive here is dead easy. Say you would like to use IRC for discussing pike, having a place to hang and chat with pike people. The way of achieving that is to decide on a network, make that #pike channel and announce the location.
You can use irc.caudium.net own network. It is small and quiet.... :) IDA can even create his own node and connect into caudium's irc network if they like :)
On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Xavier Beaudouin wrote:
Doing something constructive here is dead easy. Say you would like to use IRC for discussing pike, having a place to hang and chat with pike people. The way of achieving that is to decide on a network, make that #pike channel and announce the location.
You can use irc.caudium.net own network. It is small and quiet.... :) IDA can even create his own node and connect into caudium's irc network if they like :)
An IRC channel #pike has been temporarily created on irc.caudium.net. Poeple will move from this channel/server to another if guys from IDA prefer another IRC network.
-- David Gourdelier
you are right. i was only trying to express how kom comes across to others, and i am only more to happy to see my implied statement (that you are not making any effort) is proved wrong by the immideate aception of the #pike channel (on the caudium network no less (which should show that there really is no bias against caudium))
greetings, martin.
On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
For example why Pike core developers are not on IRC ?
Good question. That would be easy enough to rememdy if there were any ppl developing/using pike that actaully use IRC. A lot of people here strongly prefer KOM for these sort of discussions, something I too preach. IRC is for idleing/wasting time.
I can understand LysKom was used before. It was maybe available before IRC and they are surely lot of good reasons for using it.
But
First problem is Pike newbie will never come to LysKom (or there are very few chances).
Second is even if IRC is only used for idleing/wasting time (which is not only) then it's good because it creates a community and poeple feel good in it. If they feel good in it they code for it and bring poeple to it and so on and everybody is happy.
Personnaly I think one new user is better 10000 lines of codes you didn't write because you helped him/talked with him. When this user will have a good knowledge chances are he will have more power than your initial 10k lines.
OTOH - if there was a #pike somewhere, I'd probably be idleing there too.
Ok cool, that would be good to give a link to this channel from the Pike site.
I can understand LysKom was used before. It was maybe available before IRC and they are surely lot of good reasons for using it.
<mode value='off topic'>
Maybee you are not aware of this, but you are actually using KOM at this very instant - I'm typing this in KOM and it shows on the e-mail list and vice versa in your case.
There are various other interfaces for KOM available (news, web). </mode>
Second is even if IRC is only used for idleing/wasting time (which is not only) then it's good because it creates a community and poeple feel good in it.
Agreed. A community feeling is essential. Just look at what's happening to the Xfree86 project. Head over to http://www.xwin.org and have a look. People are getting involved because where there once was frustration there now is an eager desire to explore. Granted, we don't know the final outcome of that perticular situation - but I think you know what I'm saying here...
/ Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt)
Previous text:
2003-04-25 01:41: Subject: Re: Sad.....
On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
For example why Pike core developers are not on IRC ?
Good question. That would be easy enough to rememdy if there were any ppl developing/using pike that actaully use IRC. A lot of people here strongly prefer KOM for these sort of discussions, something I too preach. IRC is for idleing/wasting time.
I can understand LysKom was used before. It was maybe available before IRC and they are surely lot of good reasons for using it.
But
First problem is Pike newbie will never come to LysKom (or there are very few chances).
Second is even if IRC is only used for idleing/wasting time (which is not only) then it's good because it creates a community and poeple feel good in it. If they feel good in it they code for it and bring poeple to it and so on and everybody is happy.
Personnaly I think one new user is better 10000 lines of codes you didn't write because you helped him/talked with him. When this user will have a good knowledge chances are he will have more power than your initial 10k lines.
OTOH - if there was a #pike somewhere, I'd probably be idleing there too.
Ok cool, that would be good to give a link to this channel from the Pike site.
-- David Gourdelier
/ Brevbäraren
pike-devel@lists.lysator.liu.se
-
Alexander Demenshin -
David Gourdelier -
David Hedbor ＠ Pike developers forum -
Johan Sundstr�m (folksk�dare) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
-
Martin Baehr -
Martin Nilsson (har bott i google) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
-
Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS ＠ Pike developers forum
-
Mattias Wingstedt (Firefruit) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
-
Peter Bortas ＠ Pike developers forum
-
Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
-
rjb ＠ Pike developers forum
-
Xavier Beaudouin