[perhaps pike-devel isn't the best forum for this... should it be moved to the main pike list?]

Certainly within each community there are folks with different levels of commitment. To be sure, I know a fair number of Java developers who've drank the "kool-aid" and no amount of coaxing will get them to see that another solution might be better.

That said, I think there is a significant minority of Java users who do so just because they have to. They're not sold on it being "the one true way".

The reason I suggesed Java users is that syntax and a lot of the philosophy will be familiar so you're not running into what I like to call "the ruby syntax issue". Java developers are also used to things being difficult, even if they're not aware of it, so having to do a little legwork isn't going to be a deal breaker.

It's true that most PHP developers I know readily admit that things in PHP land suck a lot of the time. The reason I'm not sure about PHP developers being a good recruiting pool is because, as you point out, they're lazy. The conversation usually goes something like:

yeah, that's cool, but who uses it? where are all of the pre-built apps and components i can just configure? people will laugh at me if i don't use something with at least 50% market share.

and so on...

I do buy the notion that web developers are often willing to try the unproven, after all, they're a big part of why python and ruby are as popular as they are. they know pain, too, in the form of javascript.

the question is, what makes things easy? i don't think mod_pike is going to happen, though there's nothing technically preventing it. you'd still run into the problem that until it was ubiquitous, getting it set up and installed is not easy. i mean, getting php set up isn't easy either, if you're doing it yourself.

If you weren't afraid of configuring a FastCGI or SCGI app, ScriptRunner gets you the benefits of mod_pike without the horrible security and reliability issues. Perhaps the answer is that someone just needs to package it up (something I don't see myself doing).

http://www.gotpike.org/PikeWiki/index.pike/PikeApps/Pike+ScriptRunner http://www.gotpike.org/PikeWiki/index.pike/PikeRequests

The Pike wiki at gotpike.org has a wish-list that I think qualify as the "things we need to do to make pike easy" list. Please feel free to add, comment, volunteer.

Best,

Bill

PS. I'm in the US, on the east coast. Not Utah, but at least time zones aren't as bad. I know I'm not the only North American out there, as well.

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009, creatorbri@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks for the responses thus far.

You bring up a critical subject: that of the target audience for pike. I agree that ruby and python devs are a tough crowd. I wonder if Java devs are any better. There's not much language agnosticism in any of these groups from what I've seen. At the risk of being discredited completely by showing an obvious bias, I'd like to suggest an alternative: Web Developers, and specifically PHP Devs.

I sense a few eye rolls. I realize the whole Apache discussion is a mine field so I wanna take a step back. Think instead about what this bunch is all about. We have to use half a dozen tools to get anything done, and we're always looking something better because, as much as we love PHP, we realize that it sucks. The syntax of pike, irrelevant perhaps to the CS purists, offers a more organized and logical alt. The biggest hurdle is making it accessible, because we're also some of the laziest coders you'll find. I'm not saying 'mod_pike'. I'm saying we just want it simple.

Finally, keep in mind that although lazy, we are highly adaptive and tend to latch onto something new quite easily. We're also an exciteable bunch. If pike ever got an upgrade that put it more readily in the hands of web devs, I think you'd find your ranks swelling uncontrollably.

Just my cent-and-a-half.

Brian

PS - I am in Utah, USA. Germany is a long walk from my front door.