Hi All,
[apologies in advance for the cross-posting, i wasn't sure of the coverage on both lists]
I've been going through some of the items from the conference, and I thought I'd take a little initiative. To that end, here's an update:
1. A pike book
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features, but not a function reference (important functions such as Stdio and the like will be covered). My plan is to assume basic programming knowledge that isn't necessarily assumed in the current tutorial online. I've gotten a good bit of feedback regarding what's missing, from programming savvy individuals that have tried to pick up pike.
I've placed a first crack at a table of contents here:
http://hww3.riverweb.com/dist/PikeManual.txt
Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated (additions, deletions, reorganizations, etc)
Also, unrelated to this effort, I was wondering who owned the copyright on the current tutorial... does anyone know? I was thinking of getting a few copies of this material printed and bound, but don't want to end up with a lawyer at my door. If there's interest from anyone out there, please let me know.
2. The pike@roxen.com mailing list archive
As part of my research into topic #1 above, I got thinking that there's a large amount of good information locked away in the mailing list archives. Unfortunately, the only way to get at it right now is to use the mailing list archive server, which is relatively inconvenient. In order to remedy this situation, I've put a very simple, searchable archive online here:
http://modules.gotpike.org:8000/list/
It's not fulltext search (my mysql is apparently not happy about doing fulltext), but it does use substring searching, so it's at least as good as a simple grep. It will probably move to a more suitable location in the future. Thanks to Martin Bahr for the archive mailbox, going back 7 years.
As always, comments and feedback are welcome...
Bill
Wonderful!
I'll try to help with whatever I can (if I don't drive you nuts =).
A few points on the order of entries in your table of contents to be.
* Getting started
Introduction -> Introduction to pike Installation -> Installing pike
Perhaps you should consider the order of the available methods of installing to be somewhat closer to the most common case? I'm thinking
* Installing precompiled Pike binaries * Installing Pike from source * Installing Pike from CVS
Maybee the section on Using hilfe should be moved up. It is after all a rather easy and helpful first encounter with pike.
* The Pike Language
Lowercase the type names (nitpicking)
Basic Datatypes
Add the mixed type. Add zero type (? if mentioned here, perhaps only briefly).
Container datatypes
I'm curious, quite possible dumbstruck, but how is a function a object datatype? Isn't this a basic datatype?
Control statements Add for and foreach.
Operators and Expressions Perhaps a subsection on syntactic sugar? Like a[*] + b[*] (can't think of anything else ATM).
Er.. this is starting too look rather unstructured, so i'll stop here for the time beeing.
Also, If this get's busy - perhaps there would be use of a pike documentation meeting/list?
/ Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt)
Previous text:
2003-12-21 17:40: Subject: More conference items: book and mailing list
Hi All,
[apologies in advance for the cross-posting, i wasn't sure of the coverage on both lists]
I've been going through some of the items from the conference, and I thought I'd take a little initiative. To that end, here's an update:
- A pike book
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features, but not a function reference (important functions such as Stdio and the like will be covered). My plan is to assume basic programming knowledge that isn't necessarily assumed in the current tutorial online. I've gotten a good bit of feedback regarding what's missing, from programming savvy individuals that have tried to pick up pike.
I've placed a first crack at a table of contents here:
http://hww3.riverweb.com/dist/PikeManual.txt
Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated (additions, deletions, reorganizations, etc)
Also, unrelated to this effort, I was wondering who owned the copyright on the current tutorial... does anyone know? I was thinking of getting a few copies of this material printed and bound, but don't want to end up with a lawyer at my door. If there's interest from anyone out there, please let me know.
- The pike@roxen.com mailing list archive
As part of my research into topic #1 above, I got thinking that there's a large amount of good information locked away in the mailing list archives. Unfortunately, the only way to get at it right now is to use the mailing list archive server, which is relatively inconvenient. In order to remedy this situation, I've put a very simple, searchable archive online here:
http://modules.gotpike.org:8000/list/
It's not fulltext search (my mysql is apparently not happy about doing fulltext), but it does use substring searching, so it's at least as good as a simple grep. It will probably move to a more suitable location in the future. Thanks to Martin Bahr for the archive mailbox, going back 7 years.
As always, comments and feedback are welcome...
Bill
/ Brevbäraren
Great, looks like a very ambitious effort. It seems pretty much like Hubbes old "tutorial" in scope, which except for some initial examples and excercises is a fairly terse reference (and incomplete by now). Have you looked at it? Maybe parts of it can be reused.
I take it it should foremost be a "no-nonsense" reference for the core language. If so, I think every concept should be as localized as possible, and the chapter "Advanced Functionality" isn't very apt. For instance, the garbage collector should be presented close to the data types, and threads could just as well be presented in the core functionality chapter. The distinction of what about programs, functions and objects that are described under "Object Datatypes" and "Object Orientation" is a bit hazy; maybe they should be combined.
Btw, what's "Pipelining and Advanced Variable Access" about?
/ Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS
Previous text:
2003-12-21 17:40: Subject: More conference items: book and mailing list
Hi All,
[apologies in advance for the cross-posting, i wasn't sure of the coverage on both lists]
I've been going through some of the items from the conference, and I thought I'd take a little initiative. To that end, here's an update:
- A pike book
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features, but not a function reference (important functions such as Stdio and the like will be covered). My plan is to assume basic programming knowledge that isn't necessarily assumed in the current tutorial online. I've gotten a good bit of feedback regarding what's missing, from programming savvy individuals that have tried to pick up pike.
I've placed a first crack at a table of contents here:
http://hww3.riverweb.com/dist/PikeManual.txt
Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated (additions, deletions, reorganizations, etc)
Also, unrelated to this effort, I was wondering who owned the copyright on the current tutorial... does anyone know? I was thinking of getting a few copies of this material printed and bound, but don't want to end up with a lawyer at my door. If there's interest from anyone out there, please let me know.
- The pike@roxen.com mailing list archive
As part of my research into topic #1 above, I got thinking that there's a large amount of good information locked away in the mailing list archives. Unfortunately, the only way to get at it right now is to use the mailing list archive server, which is relatively inconvenient. In order to remedy this situation, I've put a very simple, searchable archive online here:
http://modules.gotpike.org:8000/list/
It's not fulltext search (my mysql is apparently not happy about doing fulltext), but it does use substring searching, so it's at least as good as a simple grep. It will probably move to a more suitable location in the future. Thanks to Martin Bahr for the archive mailbox, going back 7 years.
As always, comments and feedback are welcome...
Bill
/ Brevbäraren
The entire pike docs (and copyrights) are owned and copyrighted to IDA just as is the rest of Pike.
(Which, by the way, is not a way of saying "Hands off!" but rather "Oh joy, we won't be having any pesky fights about Mine and Theirs!" later on. All who have been around here for a while knows the mess this will spare us... :-)
/ Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!)
Previous text:
2003-12-21 17:40: Subject: More conference items: book and mailing list
Hi All,
[apologies in advance for the cross-posting, i wasn't sure of the coverage on both lists]
I've been going through some of the items from the conference, and I thought I'd take a little initiative. To that end, here's an update:
- A pike book
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features, but not a function reference (important functions such as Stdio and the like will be covered). My plan is to assume basic programming knowledge that isn't necessarily assumed in the current tutorial online. I've gotten a good bit of feedback regarding what's missing, from programming savvy individuals that have tried to pick up pike.
I've placed a first crack at a table of contents here:
http://hww3.riverweb.com/dist/PikeManual.txt
Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated (additions, deletions, reorganizations, etc)
Also, unrelated to this effort, I was wondering who owned the copyright on the current tutorial... does anyone know? I was thinking of getting a few copies of this material printed and bound, but don't want to end up with a lawyer at my door. If there's interest from anyone out there, please let me know.
- The pike@roxen.com mailing list archive
As part of my research into topic #1 above, I got thinking that there's a large amount of good information locked away in the mailing list archives. Unfortunately, the only way to get at it right now is to use the mailing list archive server, which is relatively inconvenient. In order to remedy this situation, I've put a very simple, searchable archive online here:
http://modules.gotpike.org:8000/list/
It's not fulltext search (my mysql is apparently not happy about doing fulltext), but it does use substring searching, so it's at least as good as a simple grep. It will probably move to a more suitable location in the future. Thanks to Martin Bahr for the archive mailbox, going back 7 years.
As always, comments and feedback are welcome...
Bill
/ Brevbäraren
Obviously, that makes sense. Is there any plan to release them under a "license" that might allow someone to print copies for others? I have no interest in attribution or compensation for work I have not done; but it sure would be nice to be able to say to someone, "look, here's the ISBN of a nice tutorial on the language". I think that with a bit of work, and some expansion in key areas, the tutorial could make a good "beginner's book". Getting it published is the easy part; but you have to have a manuscript first.
What say you, IDA, is there any interest in having this happen? I'd be glad to do the leg work on the tutorial, separate from my own efforts concerning the "reference manual".
Another rather pie in the sky idea that ran across my head was this: if IDA agreed to release the tutorial so that I could get it published in book form, we (a rather amorphous term admittedly) could put any potential proceeds in a big "pot" from which to fund particular projects, as a sort of incentive... you'd only need to sell a handful of books to be able to offer a USD/EUR100 bounty on say, better documentation for the Calendar module.
Wow, am i even covering advocacy today? Where's Martin Baehr??? :)
Any thoughts?
Bill
On Sunday, December 21, 2003, at 01:55 PM, Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
The entire pike docs (and copyrights) are owned and copyrighted to IDA just as is the rest of Pike.
(Which, by the way, is not a way of saying "Hands off!" but rather "Oh joy, we won't be having any pesky fights about Mine and Theirs!" later on. All who have been around here for a while knows the mess this will spare us... :-)
/ Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!)
Previous text:
2003-12-21 17:40: Subject: More conference items: book and mailing list
Hi All,
[apologies in advance for the cross-posting, i wasn't sure of the coverage on both lists]
I've been going through some of the items from the conference, and I thought I'd take a little initiative. To that end, here's an update:
- A pike book
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features, but not a function reference (important functions such as Stdio and the like will be covered). My plan is to assume basic programming knowledge that isn't necessarily assumed in the current tutorial online. I've gotten a good bit of feedback regarding what's missing, from programming savvy individuals that have tried to pick up pike.
I've placed a first crack at a table of contents here:
http://hww3.riverweb.com/dist/PikeManual.txt
Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated (additions, deletions, reorganizations, etc)
Also, unrelated to this effort, I was wondering who owned the copyright on the current tutorial... does anyone know? I was thinking of getting a few copies of this material printed and bound, but don't want to end up with a lawyer at my door. If there's interest from anyone out there, please let me know.
- The pike@roxen.com mailing list archive
As part of my research into topic #1 above, I got thinking that there's a large amount of good information locked away in the mailing list archives. Unfortunately, the only way to get at it right now is to use the mailing list archive server, which is relatively inconvenient. In order to remedy this situation, I've put a very simple, searchable archive online here:
http://modules.gotpike.org:8000/list/
It's not fulltext search (my mysql is apparently not happy about doing fulltext), but it does use substring searching, so it's at least as good as a simple grep. It will probably move to a more suitable location in the future. Thanks to Martin Bahr for the archive mailbox, going back 7 years.
As always, comments and feedback are welcome...
Bill
/ Brevbäraren
I think it sounds like a very good idea indeed, and I am sure IDA will see it similarly (will see Uwe tomorrow about other things, and be sure to bring up the suggestion).
(Feel very free to cut off the quoting of past messages hanging from the end of the message; the exporter will do it automagically on the lyskom side of the thread but you are much invited not to mimic. :-)
/ Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!)
Previous text:
2003-12-21 20:33: Subject: Re: More conference items: book and mailing list
Obviously, that makes sense. Is there any plan to release them under a "license" that might allow someone to print copies for others? I have no interest in attribution or compensation for work I have not done; but it sure would be nice to be able to say to someone, "look, here's the ISBN of a nice tutorial on the language". I think that with a bit of work, and some expansion in key areas, the tutorial could make a good "beginner's book". Getting it published is the easy part; but you have to have a manuscript first.
What say you, IDA, is there any interest in having this happen? I'd be glad to do the leg work on the tutorial, separate from my own efforts concerning the "reference manual".
Another rather pie in the sky idea that ran across my head was this: if IDA agreed to release the tutorial so that I could get it published in book form, we (a rather amorphous term admittedly) could put any potential proceeds in a big "pot" from which to fund particular projects, as a sort of incentive... you'd only need to sell a handful of books to be able to offer a USD/EUR100 bounty on say, better documentation for the Calendar module.
Wow, am i even covering advocacy today? Where's Martin Baehr??? :)
Any thoughts?
Bill
On Sunday, December 21, 2003, at 01:55 PM, Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
The entire pike docs (and copyrights) are owned and copyrighted to IDA just as is the rest of Pike.
(Which, by the way, is not a way of saying "Hands off!" but rather "Oh joy, we won't be having any pesky fights about Mine and Theirs!" later on. All who have been around here for a while knows the mess this will spare us... :-)
/ Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!)
Previous text:
2003-12-21 17:40: Subject: More conference items: book and mailing list
Hi All,
[apologies in advance for the cross-posting, i wasn't sure of the coverage on both lists]
I've been going through some of the items from the conference, and I thought I'd take a little initiative. To that end, here's an update:
- A pike book
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features, but not a function reference (important functions such as Stdio and the like will be covered). My plan is to assume basic programming knowledge that isn't necessarily assumed in the current tutorial online. I've gotten a good bit of feedback regarding what's missing, from programming savvy individuals that have tried to pick up pike.
I've placed a first crack at a table of contents here:
http://hww3.riverweb.com/dist/PikeManual.txt
Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated (additions, deletions, reorganizations, etc)
Also, unrelated to this effort, I was wondering who owned the copyright on the current tutorial... does anyone know? I was thinking of getting a few copies of this material printed and bound, but don't want to end up with a lawyer at my door. If there's interest from anyone out there, please let me know.
- The pike@roxen.com mailing list archive
As part of my research into topic #1 above, I got thinking that there's a large amount of good information locked away in the mailing list archives. Unfortunately, the only way to get at it right now is to use the mailing list archive server, which is relatively inconvenient. In order to remedy this situation, I've put a very simple, searchable archive online here:
http://modules.gotpike.org:8000/list/
It's not fulltext search (my mysql is apparently not happy about doing fulltext), but it does use substring searching, so it's at least as good as a simple grep. It will probably move to a more suitable location in the future. Thanks to Martin Bahr for the archive mailbox, going back 7 years.
As always, comments and feedback are welcome...
Bill
/ Brevbäraren
/ Brevbäraren
Definitely let me know how the conversation goes. I'm very much interested in making book(s) a reality. Any other side benefits are really bonuses :)
and sorry about the quoting... I generally try to do that, but sometimes I am just forgetful.
On Sunday, December 21, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I think it sounds like a very good idea indeed, and I am sure IDA will see it similarly (will see Uwe tomorrow about other things, and be sure to bring up the suggestion).
(Feel very free to cut off the quoting of past messages hanging from the end of the message; the exporter will do it automagically on the lyskom side of the thread but you are much invited not to mimic. :-)
/ Johan Sundström (achtung xmas!)
On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 02:30:26PM -0500, Bill Welliver wrote:
Wow, am i even covering advocacy today? Where's Martin Baehr??? :)
i was on irc waiting for you to show up... :-)
greetings, martin.
- A pike book
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features, but not a function reference (important functions such as Stdio and the like will be covered). My plan is to assume basic programming knowledge that isn't necessarily assumed in the current tutorial online. I've gotten a good bit of feedback regarding what's missing, from programming savvy individuals that have tried to pick up pike.
I'm more than willing to translate it into English for you too :)
More seriously, we should divvy up bits of it and assign them to people who specialise in it. Also, we need to look at a few things from a technical endpoint - document format? I would suggest LaTeX, but some people have personal issues with that. Also, stick it in CVS/subversion somewhere so that we can have the translation teams (hi vida!) working on it at the same time.
Cool?
--- James Tyson Director, Giant Robot Ltd http://www.giantrobot.co.nz/
Hi Bill,
I've placed a first crack at a table of contents here:
http://hww3.riverweb.com/dist/PikeManual.txt
Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated (additions, deletions, reorganizations, etc)
Very good :)
However, there are few things I think might be good (especially in a paper book) in the first chapter like "What is Pike ?", "Pike compared to other languages". For the chapter II, I would start first by a simple Pike program like hello world.
On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 11:37:48AM -0500, Bill Welliver wrote:
I've decided to start work on Pike book. My target is somewhere between the tutorial and the source code or modref. That is, a relatively complete reference to the most important parts of the language such as constructs and important features,
this idea falls in line with my recent suggestion to streamline the manual. i think we can reuse a lot from the existing manual and just fix some chapters add missing ones (and remove some)
as such the changes could be made in pike cvs where the manual already is. this also simplifies the copyright question for potential contributions to the book, as all copyright for the book should be in the hands of IDA, so anyone so any contributor would have to assign their copyright anyways.
greetings, martin.
pike-devel@lists.lysator.liu.se
-
Bill Welliver -
David Gourdelier -
James Tyson -
Johan Sundstr�m (achtung xmas!) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum -
Martin Bähr -
Martin Stjernholm, Roxen IS ＠ Pike developers forum
-
Peter Lundqvist (disjunkt) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum