this is a test of the emergency broadcast system, had this been a real emergency then an emacs kom client would have been used to write the message.
On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 12:10:04PM +0200, Hedda (Tsar) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I don't see the problem. Do you want imported emails to be exported? That would be a BAD idea.
messages that get sent to OTHER conferences and only CCd to pike-devel do not get exportet.
greetings, martin.
messages that get sent to OTHER conferences and only CCd to pike-devel do not get exportet.
That is correct. That will not be fixed. Not for a while at least. People who want to send text to the mail-list too have to comment the text in the Pike Devel Lyskom-conference.
/ Hedda (Tsar)
Previous text:
2002-09-05 00:44: Subject: Re: [Pike-devel] test
On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 12:10:04PM +0200, Hedda (Tsar) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I don't see the problem. Do you want imported emails to be exported? That would be a BAD idea.
messages that get sent to OTHER conferences and only CCd to pike-devel do not get exportet.
greetings, martin.
interrested in doing pike programming, sTeam/caudium/pike/roxen training, sTeam/caudium/roxen and/or unix system administration anywhere in the world. -- pike programmer open-steam.org csl-gmbh.net (www.archlab|(www|db).hb2).tuwien.ac.at unix (iaeste|bahai).or.at iaeste.tuwien.ac.at systemadministrator (stuts|black.linux-m68k).org is.(schon.org|root.at) Martin B"ahr http://www.iaeste.or.at/~mbaehr/
/ Brevbäraren
On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 01:10:01AM +0200, Hedda (Tsar) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
messages that get sent to OTHER conferences and only CCd to pike-devel do not get exportet.
That is correct. That will not be fixed. Not for a while at least.
that is a problem, why is that so? i am curious to understand the issues involved.
People who want to send text to the mail-list too have to comment the text in the Pike Devel Lyskom-conference.
but it's not their choice to make. the statement should rather be:
since there is a problem exporting cc'd messages, everyone please make sure that messages are not cc'd on lists which have exports...
greetings, martin.
messages that get sent to OTHER conferences and only CCd to pike-devel do not get exportet.
That is correct. That will not be fixed. Not for a while at least.
that is a problem, why is that so? i am curious to understand the issues involved.
I can of course not speak for Hedda, but I agree about the design decision. In LysKOM, there are conferences (in news or mail terms approximately "lists") and each text has one or more recipient conferences. There are also a selection of different recipient types, as in *how* the text has been added to a conference, the most common one being "recipient" (exported), but there are also "carbon copy recipient" (whose semantics just affect that text's comments - who are not routed to the same conference, that is, it is used to lead the discussion elsewhere when a thread is running astray), and "blind carbon copy recipient", which is hardly used at all.
People who want to send text to the mail-list too have to comment the text in the Pike Devel Lyskom-conference.
but it's not their choice to make.
It is too. The typical cc message in LysKOM is just an indication that the author changes topic to something that does not belong in the conference (and by inference on the list). Adding a cc to the old recipient is to help people who are not part of the other conference see that the thread continues elsewhere and give them a chance to enter/subscribe to that conference to see the rest of the thread, from there on. Exporting all of LysKOM would be futile, and generally make a mess of the list.
If you are interested in off topic discussions you are of course invited to join LysKOM using a regular LysKOM client.
/ Johan Sundström (risplockare)
Previous text:
2002-09-05 01:34: Subject: Re: [Pike-devel] test
On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 01:10:01AM +0200, Hedda (Tsar) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
messages that get sent to OTHER conferences and only CCd to pike-devel do not get exportet.
That is correct. That will not be fixed. Not for a while at least.
that is a problem, why is that so? i am curious to understand the issues involved.
People who want to send text to the mail-list too have to comment the text in the Pike Devel Lyskom-conference.
but it's not their choice to make. the statement should rather be:
since there is a problem exporting cc'd messages, everyone please make sure that messages are not cc'd on lists which have exports...
greetings, martin.
/ Brevbäraren
On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 10:50:02AM +0200, Johan Sundström (risplockare) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I can of course not speak for Hedda, but I agree about the design decision.
it is not a design decision, it is a bug!
People who want to send text to the mail-list too have to comment the text in the Pike Devel Lyskom-conference.
but it's not their choice to make.
It is too. The typical cc message in LysKOM is just an indication that the author changes topic to something that does not belong in the conference (and by inference on the list). Adding a cc to the old recipient is to help people who are not part of the other conference see that the thread continues elsewhere and give them a chance to enter/subscribe to that conference to see the rest of the thread, from there on.
yes, but how is it helping those who read the conference through the list?
Exporting all of LysKOM would be futile, and generally make a mess of the list.
i disagree, what you are saying here is that you do not care about the list, and make it a second class citizen. this is NOT nice. i do not want to be a second class citizen.
If you are interested in off topic discussions you are of course invited to join LysKOM using a regular LysKOM client.
NO! i won't. not at least until the current client situation is fixed.
everywhere in the world people use email to communicate. you want to reach the world, but you refuse to communicate on their level. this attitude seems to be the same that has been with pike and roxen all the time. you keep wondering why people feel it's so hard to contribute, and then it turns out it's only because you are not listening to them. you seem to expect them to come to you all the way. (yes i am exxagerating now, i just want to bring this point accross, i won't go on with it)
you guys all read lyskom, and many of you only pay half attention to mails. i can understand that, i read mails and i don't have the resources to watch different clients for new messages. i need every and all messages to arrive in one single place. my mailbox (yes i am sorting in folders, but i have a log to watch all incoming stuff).
i read slashdot by mail, debian weekly news...
i do not want to have to know multiple different syntaxes to read messages, if there was a lyskom client that could read mail too i would use it, because it would provide one place to read all my messages. they are messages after all, all the same semantics apply,
you expect me to contribute to the project, and i expect you to treat me as an equal citizen like everyone else. it is not nice that people have to go out of their way to be able to contribute.
greetings, martin.
Can we please have a little less heated conversation here, despite the feelings involved? I do know you do not like LysKOM, or perhaps rather the available clients / its non-news/mail-iness. Either way, we can of course solve the problems involved, one way or the other, if we focus. Wars need not be fought over anything.
I can of course not speak for Hedda, but I agree about the design decision.
it is not a design decision, it is a bug!
I am of a different opinion, but will not repeat my line of reasoning. Let's not try persuading eachother of One Truth, whichever. (It would hardly succeed, either way.)
The typical cc message in LysKOM is just an indication that the author changes topic to something that does not belong in the conference (and by inference on the list). Adding a cc to the old recipient is to help people who are not part of the other conference see that the thread continues elsewhere and give them a chance to enter/subscribe to that conference to see the rest of the thread, from there on.
yes, but how is it helping those who read the conference through the list?
It helps, by making the list more focused on Pike development, which is its purpose, the way I see it. I don't think unrelated offspring discussions about lunch near IDA, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or other threads people intentionally moderate away from the pike development conference. LysKOM is rather self-moderated, apart from whatever extra moderation the conference moderator may choose to perform.
Of course I vigorously agree that your case with text 8970755, where Hedda responded about a page about the old emacs lisp client homepage and some other lyskom related info, should have been posted to the list. In my opinion Hedda was to blame for not posting it in a manner that would be exported to the indended audience, rather than the exporter itself. If however the people on the list want to see the first message of a thread moving out of the conference, of course that could happen; it is not a hard thing to change in the exporter. But let's not point fingers here - mishaps happen.
For those who missed Hedda's informative text, here it is:
8970755 2002-09-04 00:20 /11 rader/ Hedda (Tsar) Comment to text 8970697 by eMBee CC Recipient: Pike (-) developers forum <2242> Recipient: LysKOM (-) Övrigt <3238> Subject: Re: pike-devel@caudium.info
http://www.lysator.liu.se/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/ is in Swedish, but the client-tar.gz-file has a README-file in English. And you have the key-bindings in english-strings.el...
Yes, that should definitely be a English newbie-guide.
I don't think http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/index-en.html and http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/index-en.html will make you happier as I quit working on them when I was all alone with it and didn't even get write-access to the Lyskom-home-page. (8970755) /Hedda (Tsar)/------------------
On http://pike.ida.liu.se/forums/ you will find more updated links to english pages and LysKOM clients. Unfortunately there is little info available about LysKOM concepts in general for English readers, apart from the help available in english clients, AFAIK.
Exporting all of LysKOM would be futile, and generally make a mess of the list.
i disagree, what you are saying here is that you do not care about the list, and make it a second class citizen.
Please don't put words in my mouth. Having a different opinion from yours is not synonymous with not caring. I don't want people to get lots of junk they didn't ask for on the list. If others reading the conference via mail feel your way I won't interfere, of course; I only explained why I considered the importer unbroken.
this is NOT nice. i do not want to be a second class citizen.
If you are interested in off topic discussions you are of course invited to join LysKOM using a regular LysKOM client.
NO! i won't. not at least until the current client situation is fixed.
everywhere in the world people use email to communicate. you want to reach the world, but you refuse to communicate on their level. this attitude seems to be the same that has been with pike and roxen all the time. [...] (yes i am exxagerating now, i just want to bring this point accross, i won't go on with it)
Exaggeration brought across the weight of your emotions but probably allowed for enough bandwith for the subject as well, yes. Generally, sorting out a problem and its solution is helped by a focus on the topic rather than how you feel about it (at least in text only media).
you expect me to contribute to the project,
I expect you to contribute as much or as little as you want to - no more, no less - and forcing LysKOM on you, or anyone else, is nobody's goal. It would make me glad if your goals coincided with Pike's, as they have many times before, but if you feel unable to contribute when Pike development talk does not go on in forums of your preference then you are at the mercy of others helping you to stay updated. Naturally, IDA does not have the resources to make everybody happy, despite our efforts.
and i expect you to treat me as an equal citizen like everyone else.
I do. That is why I explained, wrote this message, and try being civil despite getting much help from you. It is also why I won't track this thread, if I fail to get my points across and bad feelings keep flourishing rather than getting some constructive discussion going again. Had I not known you from before, you would probably have been taken for a troll and been more or less ignored though, so maybe you actually didn't get equal treatment. It seems my civilness proves in somewhat short supply too at the moment, by the way.
When or if I get a decent grip on which cultural differences between kom and mail/news, I will probably write a short introduction for the Pike site, in the interest of helping subscribers get acquainted with the odds and ends of the list. As the list homepage says, though, it is not your average mailing list, and will probably stay that way as long as the developers prefer hosting pike development centric discussions in LysKOM. I expect you and everybody else to respect their preferences just like they respect people to choose not to be present here, or be partially present via Hedda's import/export gateway.
/ Johan Sundström (risplockare)
Previous text:
2002-09-05 11:44: Subject: Re: [Pike-devel] test
On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 10:50:02AM +0200, Johan Sundström (risplockare) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I can of course not speak for Hedda, but I agree about the design decision.
it is not a design decision, it is a bug!
People who want to send text to the mail-list too have to comment the text in the Pike Devel Lyskom-conference.
but it's not their choice to make.
It is too. The typical cc message in LysKOM is just an indication that the author changes topic to something that does not belong in the conference (and by inference on the list). Adding a cc to the old recipient is to help people who are not part of the other conference see that the thread continues elsewhere and give them a chance to enter/subscribe to that conference to see the rest of the thread, from there on.
yes, but how is it helping those who read the conference through the list?
Exporting all of LysKOM would be futile, and generally make a mess of the list.
i disagree, what you are saying here is that you do not care about the list, and make it a second class citizen. this is NOT nice. i do not want to be a second class citizen.
If you are interested in off topic discussions you are of course invited to join LysKOM using a regular LysKOM client.
NO! i won't. not at least until the current client situation is fixed.
everywhere in the world people use email to communicate. you want to reach the world, but you refuse to communicate on their level. this attitude seems to be the same that has been with pike and roxen all the time. you keep wondering why people feel it's so hard to contribute, and then it turns out it's only because you are not listening to them. you seem to expect them to come to you all the way. (yes i am exxagerating now, i just want to bring this point accross, i won't go on with it)
you guys all read lyskom, and many of you only pay half attention to mails. i can understand that, i read mails and i don't have the resources to watch different clients for new messages. i need every and all messages to arrive in one single place. my mailbox (yes i am sorting in folders, but i have a log to watch all incoming stuff).
i read slashdot by mail, debian weekly news...
i do not want to have to know multiple different syntaxes to read messages, if there was a lyskom client that could read mail too i would use it, because it would provide one place to read all my messages. they are messages after all, all the same semantics apply,
you expect me to contribute to the project, and i expect you to treat me as an equal citizen like everyone else. it is not nice that people have to go out of their way to be able to contribute.
greetings, martin.
/ Brevbäraren
Translate Padroners KOM-introduction to English would, if not help, at least clear up some concepts.
/ Peter Bortas
Previous text:
2002-09-05 13:49: Subject: Pike dev import/export to/from LysKOM
Can we please have a little less heated conversation here, despite the feelings involved? I do know you do not like LysKOM, or perhaps rather the available clients / its non-news/mail-iness. Either way, we can of course solve the problems involved, one way or the other, if we focus. Wars need not be fought over anything.
I can of course not speak for Hedda, but I agree about the design decision.
it is not a design decision, it is a bug!
I am of a different opinion, but will not repeat my line of reasoning. Let's not try persuading eachother of One Truth, whichever. (It would hardly succeed, either way.)
The typical cc message in LysKOM is just an indication that the author changes topic to something that does not belong in the conference (and by inference on the list). Adding a cc to the old recipient is to help people who are not part of the other conference see that the thread continues elsewhere and give them a chance to enter/subscribe to that conference to see the rest of the thread, from there on.
yes, but how is it helping those who read the conference through the list?
It helps, by making the list more focused on Pike development, which is its purpose, the way I see it. I don't think unrelated offspring discussions about lunch near IDA, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or other threads people intentionally moderate away from the pike development conference. LysKOM is rather self-moderated, apart from whatever extra moderation the conference moderator may choose to perform.
Of course I vigorously agree that your case with text 8970755, where Hedda responded about a page about the old emacs lisp client homepage and some other lyskom related info, should have been posted to the list. In my opinion Hedda was to blame for not posting it in a manner that would be exported to the indended audience, rather than the exporter itself. If however the people on the list want to see the first message of a thread moving out of the conference, of course that could happen; it is not a hard thing to change in the exporter. But let's not point fingers here - mishaps happen.
For those who missed Hedda's informative text, here it is:
8970755 2002-09-04 00:20 /11 rader/ Hedda (Tsar) Comment to text 8970697 by eMBee CC Recipient: Pike (-) developers forum <2242> Recipient: LysKOM (-) Övrigt <3238> Subject: Re: pike-devel@caudium.info
http://www.lysator.liu.se/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/ is in Swedish, but the client-tar.gz-file has a README-file in English. And you have the key-bindings in english-strings.el...
Yes, that should definitely be a English newbie-guide.
I don't think http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/index-en.html and http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/index-en.html will make you happier as I quit working on them when I was all alone with it and didn't even get write-access to the Lyskom-home-page. (8970755) /Hedda (Tsar)/------------------
On http://pike.ida.liu.se/forums/ you will find more updated links to english pages and LysKOM clients. Unfortunately there is little info available about LysKOM concepts in general for English readers, apart from the help available in english clients, AFAIK.
Exporting all of LysKOM would be futile, and generally make a mess of the list.
i disagree, what you are saying here is that you do not care about the list, and make it a second class citizen.
Please don't put words in my mouth. Having a different opinion from yours is not synonymous with not caring. I don't want people to get lots of junk they didn't ask for on the list. If others reading the conference via mail feel your way I won't interfere, of course; I only explained why I considered the importer unbroken.
this is NOT nice. i do not want to be a second class citizen.
If you are interested in off topic discussions you are of course invited to join LysKOM using a regular LysKOM client.
NO! i won't. not at least until the current client situation is fixed.
everywhere in the world people use email to communicate. you want to reach the world, but you refuse to communicate on their level. this attitude seems to be the same that has been with pike and roxen all the time. [...] (yes i am exxagerating now, i just want to bring this point accross, i won't go on with it)
Exaggeration brought across the weight of your emotions but probably allowed for enough bandwith for the subject as well, yes. Generally, sorting out a problem and its solution is helped by a focus on the topic rather than how you feel about it (at least in text only media).
you expect me to contribute to the project,
I expect you to contribute as much or as little as you want to - no more, no less - and forcing LysKOM on you, or anyone else, is nobody's goal. It would make me glad if your goals coincided with Pike's, as they have many times before, but if you feel unable to contribute when Pike development talk does not go on in forums of your preference then you are at the mercy of others helping you to stay updated. Naturally, IDA does not have the resources to make everybody happy, despite our efforts.
and i expect you to treat me as an equal citizen like everyone else.
I do. That is why I explained, wrote this message, and try being civil despite getting much help from you. It is also why I won't track this thread, if I fail to get my points across and bad feelings keep flourishing rather than getting some constructive discussion going again. Had I not known you from before, you would probably have been taken for a troll and been more or less ignored though, so maybe you actually didn't get equal treatment. It seems my civilness proves in somewhat short supply too at the moment, by the way.
When or if I get a decent grip on which cultural differences between kom and mail/news, I will probably write a short introduction for the Pike site, in the interest of helping subscribers get acquainted with the odds and ends of the list. As the list homepage says, though, it is not your average mailing list, and will probably stay that way as long as the developers prefer hosting pike development centric discussions in LysKOM. I expect you and everybody else to respect their preferences just like they respect people to choose not to be present here, or be partially present via Hedda's import/export gateway.
/ Johan Sundström (risplockare)
Of course I vigorously agree that your case with text 8970755, where Hedda responded about a page about the old emacs lisp client homepage
That was an error of me when I made sent the text.
I have been very confused about what "CC:ed" means. It is no problem to export text that are written into this forum as "Extra kopiemottagare" (carbon copy recipient?), but these texts are seldom interesting. If they are interresting, they will be commented in this conference and the text will be sent as included in that comment.
But I'll try to fix it, so that the email-export become more like reading with normal Lyskom-client.
There are however a problem that texts that are moved to this conference will not be exported. There is no easy way to fix this, except to read all tests again sometimes.
/ Hedda (Tsar)
Previous text:
2002-09-05 13:49: Subject: Pike dev import/export to/from LysKOM
Can we please have a little less heated conversation here, despite the feelings involved? I do know you do not like LysKOM, or perhaps rather the available clients / its non-news/mail-iness. Either way, we can of course solve the problems involved, one way or the other, if we focus. Wars need not be fought over anything.
I can of course not speak for Hedda, but I agree about the design decision.
it is not a design decision, it is a bug!
I am of a different opinion, but will not repeat my line of reasoning. Let's not try persuading eachother of One Truth, whichever. (It would hardly succeed, either way.)
The typical cc message in LysKOM is just an indication that the author changes topic to something that does not belong in the conference (and by inference on the list). Adding a cc to the old recipient is to help people who are not part of the other conference see that the thread continues elsewhere and give them a chance to enter/subscribe to that conference to see the rest of the thread, from there on.
yes, but how is it helping those who read the conference through the list?
It helps, by making the list more focused on Pike development, which is its purpose, the way I see it. I don't think unrelated offspring discussions about lunch near IDA, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or other threads people intentionally moderate away from the pike development conference. LysKOM is rather self-moderated, apart from whatever extra moderation the conference moderator may choose to perform.
Of course I vigorously agree that your case with text 8970755, where Hedda responded about a page about the old emacs lisp client homepage and some other lyskom related info, should have been posted to the list. In my opinion Hedda was to blame for not posting it in a manner that would be exported to the indended audience, rather than the exporter itself. If however the people on the list want to see the first message of a thread moving out of the conference, of course that could happen; it is not a hard thing to change in the exporter. But let's not point fingers here - mishaps happen.
For those who missed Hedda's informative text, here it is:
8970755 2002-09-04 00:20 /11 rader/ Hedda (Tsar) Comment to text 8970697 by eMBee CC Recipient: Pike (-) developers forum <2242> Recipient: LysKOM (-) Övrigt <3238> Subject: Re: pike-devel@caudium.info
http://www.lysator.liu.se/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/ is in Swedish, but the client-tar.gz-file has a README-file in English. And you have the key-bindings in english-strings.el...
Yes, that should definitely be a English newbie-guide.
I don't think http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/index-en.html and http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/index-en.html will make you happier as I quit working on them when I was all alone with it and didn't even get write-access to the Lyskom-home-page. (8970755) /Hedda (Tsar)/------------------
On http://pike.ida.liu.se/forums/ you will find more updated links to english pages and LysKOM clients. Unfortunately there is little info available about LysKOM concepts in general for English readers, apart from the help available in english clients, AFAIK.
Exporting all of LysKOM would be futile, and generally make a mess of the list.
i disagree, what you are saying here is that you do not care about the list, and make it a second class citizen.
Please don't put words in my mouth. Having a different opinion from yours is not synonymous with not caring. I don't want people to get lots of junk they didn't ask for on the list. If others reading the conference via mail feel your way I won't interfere, of course; I only explained why I considered the importer unbroken.
this is NOT nice. i do not want to be a second class citizen.
If you are interested in off topic discussions you are of course invited to join LysKOM using a regular LysKOM client.
NO! i won't. not at least until the current client situation is fixed.
everywhere in the world people use email to communicate. you want to reach the world, but you refuse to communicate on their level. this attitude seems to be the same that has been with pike and roxen all the time. [...] (yes i am exxagerating now, i just want to bring this point accross, i won't go on with it)
Exaggeration brought across the weight of your emotions but probably allowed for enough bandwith for the subject as well, yes. Generally, sorting out a problem and its solution is helped by a focus on the topic rather than how you feel about it (at least in text only media).
you expect me to contribute to the project,
I expect you to contribute as much or as little as you want to - no more, no less - and forcing LysKOM on you, or anyone else, is nobody's goal. It would make me glad if your goals coincided with Pike's, as they have many times before, but if you feel unable to contribute when Pike development talk does not go on in forums of your preference then you are at the mercy of others helping you to stay updated. Naturally, IDA does not have the resources to make everybody happy, despite our efforts.
and i expect you to treat me as an equal citizen like everyone else.
I do. That is why I explained, wrote this message, and try being civil despite getting much help from you. It is also why I won't track this thread, if I fail to get my points across and bad feelings keep flourishing rather than getting some constructive discussion going again. Had I not known you from before, you would probably have been taken for a troll and been more or less ignored though, so maybe you actually didn't get equal treatment. It seems my civilness proves in somewhat short supply too at the moment, by the way.
When or if I get a decent grip on which cultural differences between kom and mail/news, I will probably write a short introduction for the Pike site, in the interest of helping subscribers get acquainted with the odds and ends of the list. As the list homepage says, though, it is not your average mailing list, and will probably stay that way as long as the developers prefer hosting pike development centric discussions in LysKOM. I expect you and everybody else to respect their preferences just like they respect people to choose not to be present here, or be partially present via Hedda's import/export gateway.
/ Johan Sundström (nu även i Gottfridsberg!)
On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 02:55:02PM +0200, Hedda (Tsar) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I have been very confused about what "CC:ed" means. It is no problem to export text that are written into this forum as "Extra kopiemottagare" (carbon copy recipient?), but these texts are seldom interesting.
as i said elsewhere, if they are not interresting then cc is not needed at all, if they are interresting enough to get cc'd then they should get exported too.
If they are interresting, they will be commented in this conference and the text will be sent as included in that comment.
that's another thing, those comments are not necessary. people who want to read old comments will keep them around, so they can look them up. people who delete old mails have themselves to blame.
But I'll try to fix it, so that the email-export become more like reading with normal Lyskom-client.
thank you.
There are however a problem that texts that are moved to this conference will not be exported. There is no easy way to fix this, except to read all tests again sometimes.
i do not expect you to do wonders, there are limitations abviously...
as i said elsewhere, if they are not interresting then cc is not needed at all, if they are interresting enough to get cc'd then they should get exported too.
The common practice in LysKOM is to CC the message just when a thread changes conference. I don't think you'll succeed in making all LysKOM users change their behavior so that it suits you. I won't even say "but you can try", since I don't want that either. LysKOM does not map fully to emails. Accept that or upgrade to a LysKOM client. It is your choice (and to prevent whining about unavailability of LysKOM clients for your platform, I want to stress that your platform is part of your choice).
/ Martin Nilsson (Fake Build Master)
Previous text:
2002-09-05 15:15: Subject: Re: Pike dev import/export to/from LysKOM
On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 02:55:02PM +0200, Hedda (Tsar) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I have been very confused about what "CC:ed" means. It is no problem to export text that are written into this forum as "Extra kopiemottagare" (carbon copy recipient?), but these texts are seldom interesting.
as i said elsewhere, if they are not interresting then cc is not needed at all, if they are interresting enough to get cc'd then they should get exported too.
If they are interresting, they will be commented in this conference and the text will be sent as included in that comment.
that's another thing, those comments are not necessary. people who want to read old comments will keep them around, so they can look them up. people who delete old mails have themselves to blame.
But I'll try to fix it, so that the email-export become more like reading with normal Lyskom-client.
thank you.
There are however a problem that texts that are moved to this conference will not be exported. There is no easy way to fix this, except to read all tests again sometimes.
i do not expect you to do wonders, there are limitations abviously...
/ Brevbäraren
On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 01:50:02PM +0200, Johan Sundström (risplockare) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
Can we please have a little less heated conversation here, despite the feelings involved?
yes, sure, had to get this out once, as i said, i won't continue on that level (i'll try anyways, *grin*)
It helps, by making the list more focused on Pike development, which is its purpose, the way I see it. I don't think unrelated offspring discussions about lunch near IDA, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or other threads people intentionally moderate away from the pike development conference.
i agree with that, however if there is any reason what soever that people in the pike conference should see the message and if it only is to point them to the new conference, then the ones reading the conference via the list have a right to read it too.
maybe the exporter could add a note: this message has been cc'd to this conference from conference foo. then mailreaders will know what's up.
if you think that i should not need to read cc'd messages then nobody else should need to, and the cc could be dropped completely. either everybody in the conference gets the message, or nobody does, everything else is not correct.
In my opinion Hedda was to blame for not posting it in a manner that would be exported to the indended audience, rather than the exporter itself.
i disagree here. nobody is to blame for anything. the exporter should be invisible. nobody, espcially those using lyskom clients should have to care about the exporter, they should not be bitten by the fact that the exporter makes such decisions, and be forced to work around them.
If however the people on the list want to see the first message of a thread moving out of the conference, of course that could happen; it is not a hard thing to change in the exporter.
i want to see every message that gets listed in the conference.
I don't want people to get lots of junk they didn't ask for on the list.
but everybody else on the conference sees it. why should they be getting the junk. as i said above, if it is junk, then it should not be cc'd in the first place, if it isn't then list readers deserve equal treatment.
When or if I get a decent grip on which cultural differences between kom and mail/news,
there are no cultural differences between main/news vs. kom. the differences are technical. and technical differences can be solved.
the cultural difference is rather between kom users and mail users. which is something different.
the cultural difference stems from the fact that kom readers have their kom client running al day, and keep watching the forums as they to their work in paralell.
mail readers usually check their mail a few times a day.
this leads to mail tending to longer but fewer messages, with plenty of quoting, while kom has many short messages without much quoting.
however on the email side you also have people who track their mailbox as much as most people track lyskom, and if you get them together in a list, that list will develop a culture similar to kom.
the fact that email has more quoting is because email clients by default quote the previsous message, while lyskom clients do not. but this again is only a technical difference having cultural impacts.
I expect you and everybody else to respect their preferences just like they respect people to choose not to be present here, or be partially present via Hedda's import/export gateway.
that is the problem i am trying to get fixed. i do not want to be partially present.
greetings, martin.
pike-devel@lists.lysator.liu.se
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eMBee ＠ Pike developers forum -
Hedda (Tsar) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
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Johan Sundstr�m (risplockare) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
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Martin Baehr -
Martin Nilsson (Fake Build Master) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
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Peter Bortas ＠ Pike developers forum