hi,
money from the book sales is slowly coming in, together with surplus from conference fees and pledged donations we will soon reach 1000 euro.
we have not set up any bounties and i suspect that doing so, as well as finding candidates to implement the projects will take a while.
until then we need a place where this money can be stored safely with a trustworthy person.
a suitable account must be found THIS MONTH!
because i am changing employers, my current employer can not hold the money, and he also can not move it to my private account because then i would have to pay income tax on it.
i can not offer to hold the money because i am changing location to often and as i do not trust internetbanking i do not have the ability to send money my account from anywhere but only to get cash out of an ATM which does not help us here.
we need another (at least temporary) solution. and we need it quickly.
it might also be worth looking at organizations like: https://www.pubsoft.org/ but that is ib the US whereas the money currently is in europe and i suspect that most projects will also be here. international money transfers accross currency boundaries are very expensive.
bounty sites might also work but for those we need to have projects defined.
suggestions, volunteers?
greetings, martin.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 02:05:40PM +0100, Martin Bähr wrote:
money, and he also can not move it to my private account because then i would have to pay income tax on it.
Why so? Unless this _is_ your income (and you declare it as such), you don't have to pay any taxes. The mere fact that money are deposited on your private account don't make them your income, they will not be visible to Tax Authorities (unless you are registered as unemployed, receiving welfare (or Socialhilfe etc) but even then it depends on country).
we need another (at least temporary) solution. and we need it quickly.
Conditions? I mean - how quick should be reaction when it is decided to withdraw/transfer the money (or part of it)?
Regards, /Al
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 03:28:01PM +0100, Alexander Demenshin wrote:
money, and he also can not move it to my private account because then i would have to pay income tax on it.
Why so? Unless this _is_ your income (and you declare it as such), you don't have to pay any taxes.
tax fraud is commonplace in latvia, therefore, to avoid suspicion we (as a company) must provide evidence that this money is not income for me.
The mere fact that money are deposited on your private account don't make them your income, they will not be visible to Tax Authorities
how will it not be visible? every financial transaction is documented and if a tax review happens, will show up.
i am employed by that company. so by default everything i get from that company is income. the company can not send off money randomly. (see the note on taxfraud above) there needs to be a documented reason. (paying a bounty would be such a reason, so that is ok, as well as making a donation or spending it on hardware)
in austria it would even be worse: every amount of money i get is income, and i would need to provide evidence that it is not.
Conditions? I mean - how quick should be reaction when it is decided to withdraw/transfer the money (or part of it)?
lets say for now, a response within a week is ok. anything longer would not be good.
greetings, martin.
Maybe I'm not getting it right, but how did your employer get the money for the book in the first place, if it's purpose was not actually that of paying the company? Shouldn't the money also be declared as profit for the company this way?
If the company delivered a service, it can pay out the money to a foundation, which can be errected, or maybe the pike foundation itself can be used (if there is any). This way it is not your income, and you have proof of it being transfered to a foundation, although the money is on your account.
Marc
If the company delivered a service, it can pay out the money to a foundation, which can be errected, or maybe the pike foundation itself can be used (if there is any).
This is exactly what we should do, but perhaps not something what we will manage on short notice, unless somebody gets really ambitious.
We have been putting it off indefinitely ever since Pike moved from Roxen to IDA (the department of Computer Science and Informatics at Linköping University), at what time the original plan was to transfer the rights and ownership for Pike trademarks, source code and so on, to the (a) Pike Foundation (to be).
Unfortunately the paperwork didn't happen then, so we still don't have one. Do we have anyone versed with setting up foundations or similar? Here is a chance to help do what everybody wants, but core developers have not managed to toss up on their own. :-)
Non-profits are expensive to get registered; I looked into it and it would eat up the bounty pool. It's a non-issue as long as the money gets spent.
I am also a bit confused as to how money got to be in someone else's hands (assume it has to do with there being several sources of the money), but that's a relative non-issue.
is there a possibility of the money being disbursed after the first of the year? that would make tax implications much simpler for whatever ends up happening.
Bill
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 01:25:33PM -0500, Bill Welliver wrote:
Non-profits are expensive to get registered; I looked into it and it would eat up the bounty pool. It's a non-issue as long as the money gets spent.
that is an US issue. over here, non-profits are so common that it is easy and cheap to make them.
the whole non-profit culture here is different. non-profits are not regarded as companies. you only need a charter that fits the law, get a few people and a notary to sign it, register it with the authorities and you are done.
the basic assumption is that a standard non-profit does not even have any income and no expenses either, so there is nothing to prove until you actually have a significant amount of income. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association)
the joke goes: what do 3 germans do when they meet? the found an association.
I am also a bit confused as to how money got to be in someone else's hands (assume it has to do with there being several sources of the money), but that's a relative non-issue.
the money is not in someone elses hands but on my company account. officially it is money the company received through my work, either to be paid out to me (in which case income tax needs to be paid) or to be spent for things that i need for my work. it is placed on a seperate account from the rest of the company to make sure there is no mixup with any other company business.
is there a possibility of the money being disbursed after the first of the year? that would make tax implications much simpler for whatever ends up happening.
need to check, i think that michael wants to clear my account before the end of the year for the same tax implications. :-)
greetings, martin.
I have no experience with this, but am willing to check how this can be done in Holland, and what would be the requirements for it. But only if having the foundation registrated in Holland is not a problem.
Marc
I don't think the problem is as simple as getting things organized... just because you're a non-profit doesn't make all of the problems that Martin has outlined go away. In fact, normally the restrictions are more onerous. The only significant benefit to having a registered non-profit organization in most locales is that you can deduct any donations you make to a non-profit from your income.
I would argue that the hassles are not worth it at this point (speaking from a been there, done that standpoint).
Bill
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Marc Dirix wrote:
I have no experience with this, but am willing to check how this can be done in Holland, and what would be the requirements for it. But only if having the foundation registrated in Holland is not a problem.
Marc
!DSPAM:4578604d12591696746053!
Ok, I have no clue about how things work with non-profit organisations. Also I don't know how they differ in my country against yours. But somehow it seems it would be easier to manage, and align funding and gifts.
Op 7-dec-2006, om 19:53 heeft Bill Welliver het volgende geschreven:
I don't think the problem is as simple as getting things organized... just because you're a non-profit doesn't make all of the problems that Martin has outlined go away. In fact, normally the restrictions are more onerous. The only significant benefit to having a registered non-profit organization in most locales is that you can deduct any donations you make to a non-profit from your income.
I would argue that the hassles are not worth it at this point (speaking from a been there, done that standpoint).
Bill
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Marc Dirix wrote:
I have no experience with this, but am willing to check how this can be done in Holland, and what would be the requirements for it. But only if having the foundation registrated in Holland is not a problem.
Marc
!DSPAM:4578604d12591696746053!
It makes life easier if you are a non-profit looking for funding in that there's incentive for someone to donate. In all other respects, a non-profit is as much or more work to set up and run (due to all of the filings you typically have to make in order to prove you are a non-profit and aren't making a profit). I doubt that it's all that different in other locales.
That's not to suggest that it's not a worthwhile sort of thing, but it would seem to me that the overall overhead required to set up and maintain such an entity (and make sure that it wasn't tied to one individual) would be disproportionate to the amount of benefit derived at this point.
I really don't anticipate there being a large outpouring of donations, with the primary source (aside from the leftovers from conference fees) being the proceeds from sales of "the book" based on my gentlemen's agreement with the folks at ida.
Bill
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Marc Dirix wrote:
Ok, I have no clue about how things work with non-profit organisations. Also I don't know how they differ in my country against yours. But somehow it seems it would be easier to manage, and align funding and gifts.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 02:34:32PM -0500, H. William Welliver III wrote:
It makes life easier if you are a non-profit looking for funding in that there's incentive for someone to donate. In all other respects, a non-profit is as much or more work to set up and run (due to all of the filings you typically have to make in order to prove you are a non-profit and aren't making a profit). I doubt that it's all that different in other locales.
it is very different over here.
apart from the things mentioned (a charter and founding members) we need a yearly membership meeting (which can happen at the pike conference) to elect officers, make a financial report and decisions whcih require membership voting (depending to the charter)
if we are to set up a foundation, it would make the most sense to do so in sweden since most of the core developers are there. but then we need at least one swedish volunteer to research the exact legal requirements.
greetings, martin.
I think the point that i was subtly trying to make is that there aren't any people willing to go through the trouble of setting this up. I imagine it would take more than one or two people to do, and all of the logical choices seem rather busy.
It occurred to me that if Michael wanted to send me a check, I do cash accounting of my business, so if he does accrual accounting, he could get the money "off his books" when he writes the check (which I presume he could do), and I wouldn't receive the funds till I cashed the check (which I know I can do).
Bill
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Martin [iso-8859-1] B�hr wrote:
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 02:34:32PM -0500, H. William Welliver III wrote:
It makes life easier if you are a non-profit looking for funding in that there's incentive for someone to donate. In all other respects, a non-profit is as much or more work to set up and run (due to all of the filings you typically have to make in order to prove you are a non-profit and aren't making a profit). I doubt that it's all that different in other locales.
it is very different over here.
apart from the things mentioned (a charter and founding members) we need a yearly membership meeting (which can happen at the pike conference) to elect officers, make a financial report and decisions whcih require membership voting (depending to the charter)
if we are to set up a foundation, it would make the most sense to do so in sweden since most of the core developers are there. but then we need at least one swedish volunteer to research the exact legal requirements.
greetings, martin.
!DSPAM:4578a70150321554259443!
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:03:39PM -0500, H. William Welliver III wrote:
It occurred to me that if Michael wanted to send me a check, I do cash accounting of my business, so if he does accrual accounting, he could get the money "off his books" when he writes the check (which I presume he could do), and I wouldn't receive the funds till I cashed the check (which I know I can do).
europe stopped using paper checks a few decades or so ago. unfortunately the only acceptable way to get money off our account is by wire transfer. i heared that the tax authorities have a hard time to accept anything else.
international transfers take time though so we may get by with sending the money off on dec 31st and you receive it a few days later.
lets move this to private discussion between you, michael and me.
greetings, martin.
europe stopped using paper checks a few decades or so ago. unfortunately the only acceptable way to get money off our account is by wire transfer. i heared that the tax authorities have a hard time to accept anything else.
international transfers take time though so we may get by with sending the money off on dec 31st and you receive it a few days later.
That would be cheques :)
Why not just use a paypal account?
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 01:31:33PM +1300, James Neil Tyson wrote:
Why not just use a paypal account?
paypal is not a bank, so your money is not protected by bank-laws, and they have a bad track record (there are complaints and lawsuits).
i would not trust them with my lunch money, let alone any sums larger than that.
greetings, martin.
Actually a non-profit organisation seems better than a foundation for a live project like Pike. A foundation is typically used by dead people who insist they must have a say in how their money is spent. This means that the charter of a foundation is a write-once regret-forever affair. Hence it is very important to get right at the first try.
A non-profit organisation is on the other hand easy to create and can be adapted according to the wishes of its live, active members.
There already exists a non-profit organisation where Pike was born (or at least its direct precursor), that has handled money ear-marked for projects responsibly in the past and where most of the swdish Pike developers are still members: Lysator. Has anyone checked with the current board if Lysator can help solve the current problem?
Actually a non-profit organisation seems better than a foundation for a live project like Pike. A foundation is typically used by dead people who insist they must have a say in how their money is spent. This means that the charter of a foundation is a write-once regret-forever affair. Hence it is very important to get right at the first try.
A non-profit organisation is on the other hand easy to create and can be adapted according to the wishes of its live, active members.
There already exists a non-profit organisation where Pike was born (or at least its direct precursor), that has handled money ear-marked for projects responsibly in the past and where most of the swdish Pike developers are still members: Lysator. Has anyone checked with the current board if Lysator can help solve the current problem?
Actually a non-profit organisation seems better than a foundation for a live project like Pike. A foundation is typically used by dead people who insist they must have a say in how their money is spent. This means that the charter of a foundation is a write-once regret-forever affair. Hence it is very important to get right at the first try.
A non-profit organisation is on the other hand easy to create and can be adapted according to the wishes of its live, active members.
There already exists a non-profit organisation where Pike was born (or at least its direct precursor), that has handled money ear-marked for projects responsibly in the past and where most of the swdish Pike developers are still members: Lysator. Has anyone checked with the current board if Lysator can help solve the current problem?
Actually a non-profit organisation seems better than a foundation for a live project like Pike. A foundation is typically used by dead people who insist they must have a say in how their money is spent. This means that the charter of a foundation is a write-once regret-forever affair. Hence it is very important to get right at the first try.
A non-profit organisation is on the other hand easy to create and can be adapted according to the wishes of its live, active members.
There already exists a non-profit organisation where Pike was born (or at least its direct precursor), that has handled money ear-marked for projects responsibly in the past and where most of the swdish Pike developers are still members: Lysator. Has anyone checked with the current board if Lysator can help solve the current problem?
Actually a non-profit organisation seems better than a foundation for a live project like Pike. A foundation is typically used by dead people who insist they must have a say in how their money is spent. This means that the charter of a foundation is a write-once regret-forever affair. Hence it is very important to get right at the first try.
A non-profit organisation is on the other hand easy to create and can be adapted according to the wishes of its live, active members.
There already exists a non-profit organisation where Pike was born (or at least its direct precursor), that has handled money ear-marked for projects responsibly in the past and where most of the swdish Pike developers are still members: Lysator. Has anyone checked with the current board if Lysator can help solve the current problem?
People who are not students or employees at LiU need to make a formal application to the board, which they are free to accept or reject as they see fit.
Lysator is probably more of a short-term solution to find an account before the end of the year. For the long-term my recommendation is to set up a Pike non-profit organisation with an charter that makes it possible to hold virtual board and member meetings.
Or maybe it would be better to try to outsource to FSF, Apache or another such organisation?
For a short-term solution, it's a rather good fit for the problem at hand, I must agree. The only issue I'd have with the idea, considered long term, is that it would puts decisions about Pike's assets under the direct influence of random Lysator members (via semi-yearly member meetings empowered to vote through anything above the heads of even the board), who might have other ideas about Pike than we do.
In practice and in the short term, it's pretty much a non-issue, though; I'd certainly trust Lysator to act the credible other part to prove a non-profit, non-Martin Bähr organization in this context. Plus the last member meeting wasn't that long ago. :)
We chose IDA over Lysator for the reasons above to avoid any potential long-term issues with shifting board leaderships and the like, but presently (and in the past) it is and has been a both very stable and trustworthy organization.
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 02:50:01PM +0000, Johan Sundstr�m (Achtung Liebe!) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
In practice and in the short term, it's pretty much a non-issue, though; I'd certainly trust Lysator to act the credible other part to prove a non-profit, non-Martin Bähr organization in this context.
lol, i didn't say i don't want to be part of a pike organization, i only won't be able to handle money on behalf of the pike community. so in said organization i would not be willing to be the treasurer.
We chose IDA over Lysator for the reasons above to avoid any potential long-term issues with shifting board leaderships and the like
ok. in the current situation however, since bill is the primary editor of the book, and therefore the person who should have most of the say on how the money is spent anyways, it makes a lot of sense to have him handle the money.
the only 'problem' is the cost of the money transfer to the US.
greetings, martin.
I volunteer to do take care of bounty administration. i've already got experience in this sort of thing (international finance and money laundering (just kidding about the second one)... what you need to do is either do a wire transfer to me, or send a check to me (preferably in US funds).
as long as i can justify that the money has been spent by me for business purposes within the tax year, there is a net zero consequence for me.
bill
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Marc Dirix wrote:
Maybe I'm not getting it right, but how did your employer get the money for the book in the first place, if it's purpose was not actually that of paying the company? Shouldn't the money also be declared as profit for the company this way?
If the company delivered a service, it can pay out the money to a foundation, which can be errected, or maybe the pike foundation itself can be used (if there is any). This way it is not your income, and you have proof of it being transfered to a foundation, although the money is on your account.
Marc
!DSPAM:45783381148921245992106!
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 04:19:38PM +0100, Marc Dirix wrote:
Maybe I'm not getting it right, but how did your employer get the money for the book in the first place, if it's purpose was not actually that of paying the company?
well, the book has been printed with the help of michael dexter (the same guy who organized the pike conference), who is also responsible for my account at the company. (the company has a seperate account for my work)
Shouldn't the money also be declared as profit for the company this way?
yes, but only if the money is not spent or used to pay employees.
it is company income at that point, which is not a problem because the company already collects income on my behalf for my work. but only part of that money is actually paid out to me. the other part is spent on things that i need for my work like hardware and subcontractors, and since my work revolves around pike spending money on pike development is a natural fit.
If the company delivered a service, it can pay out the money to a foundation, which can be errected, or maybe the pike foundation itself can be used (if there is any).
that would be a long term plan. but we don't have enough time for that now.
This way it is not your income, and you have proof of it being transfered to a foundation, although the money is on your account.
the company needs to have the proof, not me. i want to stay out of this completely because i abhorr paperwork and i won't be able to cooperate if at some point someone wants to see some papers and i am halfway accross the globe, far away from where the papers might be.
greetings, martin.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 02:05:40PM +0100, Martin Bähr wrote:
it might also be worth looking at organizations like: https://www.pubsoft.org/
i have taken a closer look at that site. it is very lacking in information, and to add insult to injury, when i sent an email to the contact address i got the following reply:
Hi. This is Russ Nelson's autoresponder. Thanks for sending me email. Unfortunately, I'm going to ignore your email. I ignore all email from strangers that has any of the following characteristics: o Any 8-bit characters anywhere in the email. o Any Subject: with all capital letters. o Any Subject: written in a non-English language. o Any email from a host without reverse DNS.
Please send me a plain-text message asking me to whitelist you. Sorry for the inconvenience. Note that if your host has no reverse DNS, there's no way to get email to me unless you're whitelisted. Talk to your local system admin and/or send me email from gmail.com. Sorry for putting you through this trouble, but I need machine assistance to deal with my spam load.
not only do i find it annoying that they are asking me to jump though hoops to be able to contact them, but to reject any mail that uses anything but 7bit ascii is outright offensive!
if they are not prepared to deal with people that have a background which is outside their limites 7bit-us-ascii world then they are not suitable for us.
greetings, martin (irritated!)
[...]
Some frenchies can create a non profit organisation and contact me about how to handle that kind of money to avoid getting income tax about that. You just need to be very strict on about you handle money and how / what you spend it.
Also in franch mayors can send you money (in fact they have to send you money if you claim it) for example to find funds to prepare a pike conference.
I have some experience about that, so if there is frenchies here who want to start such project, just contact me in private.
(I cannot handle that myself, I have enougth work with my own on profit organisation, work, real life, and.... others things...).
/Xavier
On Sun, Dec 10, 2006 at 09:06:31PM +0100, Martin Bähr wrote:
not only do i find it annoying that they are asking me to jump though hoops to be able to contact them,
Well, that'y _you_ who want to contact them, so if you _really_ want to do so, if you really _need_ this, you have little choice :)
But, of course, such a way to deal with correspondence is not completely right... I wouldn't write them again too...
Regards, /Al
not only do i find it annoying that they are asking me to jump though hoops to be able to contact them, but to reject any mail that uses anything but 7bit ascii is outright offensive!
shouldn't mime convert 8bit characters to 7-bit before transferring? Outlook at least doesn't handle 8-bit characters while transferring from a pop-server (as by recent experience).
An ESMTP capable mail server may declare 8BITMIME capability, in which case there is no need to convert to 7-bit. All computers have at least 8 bits in their bytes novadays anyway...
hi,
we have come up with an interim solution that does not involve sending money accross the globe at high bank charges just yet.
anyways: here is the current state: 500 euro are in my possession. (the greater part of that is actually surplus from the past conferences) 325 euro are awaited from opera by michael dexter, who will hold them until we have a better place. $100 have been pledged
that gives us 900 euro to seed bounties. that is more than i expected at this point, and i think a pretty good sum to start with.
greetings, martin.
So, I think at this point, we should start collecting suggestions about what kinds of bounties to offer.
A possible example:
Implement break, step and resume with support for machine code. Integrate this support into unbug.
This would presumably then result in a more complete list of requirements that the successful bounty would need to satisfy.
For this bounty, we offer 200 EUR, funded by the general Bounty fund (and any possible co-sponsors).
So, how about it? Any thoughts about what kinds of things you'd like to see bounties for? We have a list from the conference, but feel free to suggest things you see possibilities for.
A separate discussion surrounds "bounty administration", but that's a nother topic for another day :)
Bill
Bill
On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 11:57:03AM -0500, hww3@riverweb.com wrote:
So, how about it? Any thoughts about what kinds of things you'd like to see bounties for? We have a list from the conference, but feel free to suggest things you see possibilities for.
the list from the conference is:
documentation fact finding and documenting modules. write articles about pike (eg: object orientation ) make the BNF from the reference more readable (here 2 people immideately offered $50 each) add sections like those in python to the pike documentation ( http://docs.python.org/ref/strings.html ) add support for breakpoints and stepping create a module to generate and overlay pdf documents add pike support to eclipse
greetings, martin.
So, how about it? Any thoughts about what kinds of things you'd like to see bounties for? We have a list from the conference, but feel free to suggest things you see possibilities for.
the list from the conference is:
documentation fact finding and documenting modules. write articles about pike (eg: object orientation ) make the BNF from the reference more readable (here 2 people immideately offered $50 each) add sections like those in python to the pike documentation ( http://docs.python.org/ref/strings.html ) add support for breakpoints and stepping create a module to generate and overlay pdf documents add pike support to eclipse
Improve multithreading support (for SMP/multi-core machines)
reformat the module reference so that the create() function is moved to the main heading of a class as ClassName()
add an example to every page in the module refernce (where it makes sense)
write an article about GLUE
greetings, martin.
I've put all of the suggestions up at:
http://www.gotpike.org/PikeWiki/index.pike/PikeBounties
Please feel free to add/elaborate on this list. Once it's a little better developed, we can post it somewhere more permanent.
Really, these are just starting points for a more complete bounty description. We need to come up with descriptions that lay out exactly what needs to be done to claim the bounty. An example might be:
http://www.gnome.org/bounties/IM.html#127546
Bill
Are community building efforts outside of the scope of bounties? I'd like to see material for newcomers that lowers barriers to entry by demonstrating supporting tools and and whatever is part of the pike tool chain in general. The more appetizingly served, the better.
The macintosh TextMate editor has a very busy community on this front, which sets a great example, IMO. Driving pike adoption isn't so much advocacy as *showing* how pike is useful, pleasant and/or luxorous.
Critique openly contrasting pike misfeatures to design choices made in other language environments makes useful subject matter too (but is, in itself, perhaps not quite bounty material). Often it can be things like explaining that Pike doesn't advocate using UTF8 as an internal format, and why -- which surprisingly often is the fact in (internal!) APIs found in the wild in other language camps.
On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 03:35:01AM +0000, Johan Sundstr�m (Achtung Liebe!) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
Are community building efforts outside of the scope of bounties?
of course not. any effort that people are willing to contribute money to is welcome.
I'd like to see material for newcomers that lowers barriers to entry by demonstrating supporting tools and and whatever is part of the pike tool chain in general. The more appetizingly served, the better.
i think that is basicly what we meant by writing articles about pike.
Driving pike adoption isn't so much advocacy as *showing* how pike is useful, pleasant and/or luxorous.
indeed. that's my preferred form of advocacy anyways :-)
Critique openly contrasting pike misfeatures to design choices made in other language environments makes useful subject matter too (but is, in itself, perhaps not quite bounty material).
it does fit in the article category.
greetings, martin.
On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 03:35:01AM +0000, Johan Sundstr�m (Achtung Liebe!) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
explaining that Pike doesn't advocate using UTF8 as an internal format, and why
that is a good question. why is that?
i am guessing it might be for one that utf-8 strings can become very large when used for asian languages, but i am sure there is more to it.
greetings, martin.
explaining that Pike doesn't advocate using UTF8 as an internal format, and why
that is a good question. why is that?
UTF8 is an encoding format; a character (byte) in an UTF8 bytestring doesn't represent a character in the string.
The answer is more or less the same as why you don't use gzipped strings as an internal format: an indexed character in your data doesn't represent a character in the text.
Both gzip and UTF8 are good transfer encoding formats (and orthogonal), but neither are very useful in string manipulation. (Ok, gzip is worse, I'll give you that. But you get my point.)
Nothing stops you from using neither gzip nor UTF-8-encoded strings in Pike though, if you find it useful.
ah, i see where this is getting at, because of the variable length you have to do extra work to keep track of the position of each character, so working directly on utf-8 makes no sense and any code using utf-8 internally will have to keep converting back and forth.
greetings, martin.
Yes, exactly. So if you want to do actual works on the strings, it makes much more sense to convert them to widestrings, where one character is one character, do the work, and in the output step convert them to whatever you feel like (UTF8, for instance).
pike-devel@lists.lysator.liu.se
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hww3＠riverweb.com
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James Neil Tyson -
Johan Sundstr�m (Achtung Liebe!) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum -
Marc Dirix -
Marcus Comstedt (ACROSS) (Hail Ilpalazzo!) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
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Martin Baehr -
Martin Bähr
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Martin Bähr
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Mattias Wingstedt (Firefruit) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
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Mirar ＠ Pike developers forum
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Xavier Beaudouin