Translate Padroners KOM-introduction to English would, if not help, at least clear up some concepts.
/ Peter Bortas
Previous text:
2002-09-05 13:49: Subject: Pike dev import/export to/from LysKOM
Can we please have a little less heated conversation here, despite the feelings involved? I do know you do not like LysKOM, or perhaps rather the available clients / its non-news/mail-iness. Either way, we can of course solve the problems involved, one way or the other, if we focus. Wars need not be fought over anything.
I can of course not speak for Hedda, but I agree about the design decision.
it is not a design decision, it is a bug!
I am of a different opinion, but will not repeat my line of reasoning. Let's not try persuading eachother of One Truth, whichever. (It would hardly succeed, either way.)
The typical cc message in LysKOM is just an indication that the author changes topic to something that does not belong in the conference (and by inference on the list). Adding a cc to the old recipient is to help people who are not part of the other conference see that the thread continues elsewhere and give them a chance to enter/subscribe to that conference to see the rest of the thread, from there on.
yes, but how is it helping those who read the conference through the list?
It helps, by making the list more focused on Pike development, which is its purpose, the way I see it. I don't think unrelated offspring discussions about lunch near IDA, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or other threads people intentionally moderate away from the pike development conference. LysKOM is rather self-moderated, apart from whatever extra moderation the conference moderator may choose to perform.
Of course I vigorously agree that your case with text 8970755, where Hedda responded about a page about the old emacs lisp client homepage and some other lyskom related info, should have been posted to the list. In my opinion Hedda was to blame for not posting it in a manner that would be exported to the indended audience, rather than the exporter itself. If however the people on the list want to see the first message of a thread moving out of the conference, of course that could happen; it is not a hard thing to change in the exporter. But let's not point fingers here - mishaps happen.
For those who missed Hedda's informative text, here it is:
8970755 2002-09-04 00:20 /11 rader/ Hedda (Tsar) Comment to text 8970697 by eMBee CC Recipient: Pike (-) developers forum <2242> Recipient: LysKOM (-) Övrigt <3238> Subject: Re: pike-devel@caudium.info
http://www.lysator.liu.se/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/ is in Swedish, but the client-tar.gz-file has a README-file in English. And you have the key-bindings in english-strings.el...
Yes, that should definitely be a English newbie-guide.
I don't think http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/index-en.html and http://www.lysator.liu.se/~hedda/lyskom/klienter/emacslisp/index-en.html will make you happier as I quit working on them when I was all alone with it and didn't even get write-access to the Lyskom-home-page. (8970755) /Hedda (Tsar)/------------------
On http://pike.ida.liu.se/forums/ you will find more updated links to english pages and LysKOM clients. Unfortunately there is little info available about LysKOM concepts in general for English readers, apart from the help available in english clients, AFAIK.
Exporting all of LysKOM would be futile, and generally make a mess of the list.
i disagree, what you are saying here is that you do not care about the list, and make it a second class citizen.
Please don't put words in my mouth. Having a different opinion from yours is not synonymous with not caring. I don't want people to get lots of junk they didn't ask for on the list. If others reading the conference via mail feel your way I won't interfere, of course; I only explained why I considered the importer unbroken.
this is NOT nice. i do not want to be a second class citizen.
If you are interested in off topic discussions you are of course invited to join LysKOM using a regular LysKOM client.
NO! i won't. not at least until the current client situation is fixed.
everywhere in the world people use email to communicate. you want to reach the world, but you refuse to communicate on their level. this attitude seems to be the same that has been with pike and roxen all the time. [...] (yes i am exxagerating now, i just want to bring this point accross, i won't go on with it)
Exaggeration brought across the weight of your emotions but probably allowed for enough bandwith for the subject as well, yes. Generally, sorting out a problem and its solution is helped by a focus on the topic rather than how you feel about it (at least in text only media).
you expect me to contribute to the project,
I expect you to contribute as much or as little as you want to - no more, no less - and forcing LysKOM on you, or anyone else, is nobody's goal. It would make me glad if your goals coincided with Pike's, as they have many times before, but if you feel unable to contribute when Pike development talk does not go on in forums of your preference then you are at the mercy of others helping you to stay updated. Naturally, IDA does not have the resources to make everybody happy, despite our efforts.
and i expect you to treat me as an equal citizen like everyone else.
I do. That is why I explained, wrote this message, and try being civil despite getting much help from you. It is also why I won't track this thread, if I fail to get my points across and bad feelings keep flourishing rather than getting some constructive discussion going again. Had I not known you from before, you would probably have been taken for a troll and been more or less ignored though, so maybe you actually didn't get equal treatment. It seems my civilness proves in somewhat short supply too at the moment, by the way.
When or if I get a decent grip on which cultural differences between kom and mail/news, I will probably write a short introduction for the Pike site, in the interest of helping subscribers get acquainted with the odds and ends of the list. As the list homepage says, though, it is not your average mailing list, and will probably stay that way as long as the developers prefer hosting pike development centric discussions in LysKOM. I expect you and everybody else to respect their preferences just like they respect people to choose not to be present here, or be partially present via Hedda's import/export gateway.
/ Johan Sundström (risplockare)