No, we do not ignore external modules. But the current aclocal.m4 does not have anything to do with what you want (pike.m4 for automake/aclocal). Thus it's not sensible to 'clean it up' and install it as such.
Writing a pike.m4 would, however, make sense.
/ Per Hedbor ()
Previous text:
2004-01-26 22:18: Subject: Re: Pike @ Debian
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:45:04PM +0100, Niels Möller (vässar rödpennan) @ Pike (-) developers forum scribbled:
Alas, it wouldn't... If some Pike C module runs aclocal it could pull in both the pike's aclocal.m4 and other files with, possibly, macros that are already defined in the pike's aclocal.m4 file. I doubt autoconf is smart enough to cope with it ;)
I think you're confusing several things here. Autoconf, automake, the aclocal program (more or less a part of automake), and the aclocal.m4 file are not all used together and are not using the same conventions.
Believe or not, but I'm quite aware of that. Let me remind you that the proposition was to put the pike's aclocal.m4 under a different name in the system-wide .m4 directory. Does that change your assessment?
aclocal.m4 existed long before automake, and it plays the same role that acinclude.m4 plays in automakeified projects. It's a *handwritten* file included by autoconf, specific to the project being built.
Again, I'm quite aware of the fact.
The aclocal proram is a later invention that constructs an aclocal.m4 file from various fragments stored somewhere under share.
You haven't surprised me here, either.
Pike uses autoconf, and uses aclocal.m4 the the way it was intended when autoconf was first written. It does *not* use automake, and it does *not* use the aclocal program. It's aclocal.m4 is *not* intended to ever be picked up by the aclocal program.
It does *not* mean the external Pike modules written in C _cannot_ use automake, am I right? Or is it forbidden because Pike itself doesn't use it?
So the main poitn here is that any debian policy that has to do with automake and the aclocal program is totally irrelevant to pike.
Of course it isn't. But it might be relevant to external Pike modules. But you're determined to ignore them, right?
marek
/ Brevbäraren
guys, this is getting out of hands, i read things like:
you're determined to ignore them, right? and you seem to be intentionally minsunderstandning things in texts we write
so instead of talking about solutions we are accusing each other of bad intentions.
is there anyone left with good intentions. who here is really still interrested in getting pike to work? it seems that there is more interrest in insisting to be right.
can we please stop this senseless discussion now, and go back after a good night sleep tomorrow?
greetings, martin.
Guys,
I have a few things that I need to get off my chest, and is not intended to be an extension of any discussions that went on earlier. It's a little bit long, and it's also not intended to offend. Please read and consider...
<mode="rant">
Whether anyone here cares to admit it, this is a serious problem. It's a real shame that Martin has to be the peace maker here, and it's not the first time it's been necessary. This community is too small to afford the loss of even one contributor. I feel that a lot of progress had been made recently, particularly since the conference, and today, things have been set back 6 months.
If you don't care whether anyone else uses your software, or whether anyone beyond the current user base gets involved, that's just fine. However there are those among us who either depend on it [pike] for their livelihood or have an major investment in it in time, effort, money, etc. These sorts of goings on have a direct impact on our ability to find and retain the kind of talent that's required to succeed at whatever we're trying to accomplish.
Everyone commits the occasional email indiscretion from time to time (myself included), however the comments that flew during the Debian conversation were really out of line. As martin mentioned, it quickly got to the point where the original question and comments were completely lost. If you are unable to restrain yourself from typing things that are both non-productive and insulting to others, at least have the good sense to delete the message before sending it.
No one gets along with everyone all of the time. I know I don't. Not everyone has a mastery of each other's native language and cultures. I know I don't even have that good of a grasp of english, and it's my primary language. Not everyone thinks Debian is the best thing since sliced bread. I know I certainly don't.
Maybe a whole bunch of people were just having a bad day. I guess anything is possible, and placing blame really isn't my thing. I'd prefer to just learn from our mistakes and move on. With that in mind, here's a bit of advise for whatever it's worth: On several occasions, I've gotten into lengthy, passionate arguments with people on this list, and as far as I know, no one involved has walked away offended. How do I do it, you might ask? I am patient and polite in my communications, email in particular. I might think that Martin and his opinions are the root of all evil, and that all Austrians should have their email privileges revoked, but I keep that to myself. (that was humor, btw).
The long and the short of it is that, in all likelihood, pike has lost a developer that was at least trying to make things better. Did it have to happen that way? No. Each one of us has a responsibility to make this place as productive and open to new ideas as possible. Otherwise, we're all just wasting our time. I'd hate to think that that was the way it had to be.
</mode>
Thanks for listening,
Bill
On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 04:35 PM, Martin Bähr wrote:
guys, this is getting out of hands, i read things like:
you're determined to ignore them, right? and you seem to be intentionally minsunderstandning things in texts we write
so instead of talking about solutions we are accusing each other of bad intentions.
is there anyone left with good intentions. who here is really still interrested in getting pike to work? it seems that there is more interrest in insisting to be right.
can we please stop this senseless discussion now, and go back after a good night sleep tomorrow?
greetings, martin.
I agree. I don't know what that was that was happening. It looked like everyone but Niels tried its best to not solve the problem, except for themselves.
/ Martin Nilsson (saturator)
Previous text:
2004-01-27 02:04: Subject: decorum
Guys,
I have a few things that I need to get off my chest, and is not intended to be an extension of any discussions that went on earlier. It's a little bit long, and it's also not intended to offend. Please read and consider...
<mode="rant">
Whether anyone here cares to admit it, this is a serious problem. It's a real shame that Martin has to be the peace maker here, and it's not the first time it's been necessary. This community is too small to afford the loss of even one contributor. I feel that a lot of progress had been made recently, particularly since the conference, and today, things have been set back 6 months.
If you don't care whether anyone else uses your software, or whether anyone beyond the current user base gets involved, that's just fine. However there are those among us who either depend on it [pike] for their livelihood or have an major investment in it in time, effort, money, etc. These sorts of goings on have a direct impact on our ability to find and retain the kind of talent that's required to succeed at whatever we're trying to accomplish.
Everyone commits the occasional email indiscretion from time to time (myself included), however the comments that flew during the Debian conversation were really out of line. As martin mentioned, it quickly got to the point where the original question and comments were completely lost. If you are unable to restrain yourself from typing things that are both non-productive and insulting to others, at least have the good sense to delete the message before sending it.
No one gets along with everyone all of the time. I know I don't. Not everyone has a mastery of each other's native language and cultures. I know I don't even have that good of a grasp of english, and it's my primary language. Not everyone thinks Debian is the best thing since sliced bread. I know I certainly don't.
Maybe a whole bunch of people were just having a bad day. I guess anything is possible, and placing blame really isn't my thing. I'd prefer to just learn from our mistakes and move on. With that in mind, here's a bit of advise for whatever it's worth: On several occasions, I've gotten into lengthy, passionate arguments with people on this list, and as far as I know, no one involved has walked away offended. How do I do it, you might ask? I am patient and polite in my communications, email in particular. I might think that Martin and his opinions are the root of all evil, and that all Austrians should have their email privileges revoked, but I keep that to myself. (that was humor, btw).
The long and the short of it is that, in all likelihood, pike has lost a developer that was at least trying to make things better. Did it have to happen that way? No. Each one of us has a responsibility to make this place as productive and open to new ideas as possible. Otherwise, we're all just wasting our time. I'd hate to think that that was the way it had to be.
</mode>
Thanks for listening,
Bill
On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 04:35 PM, Martin Bähr wrote:
guys, this is getting out of hands, i read things like:
you're determined to ignore them, right? and you seem to be intentionally minsunderstandning things in texts we write
so instead of talking about solutions we are accusing each other of bad intentions.
is there anyone left with good intentions. who here is really still interrested in getting pike to work? it seems that there is more interrest in insisting to be right.
can we please stop this senseless discussion now, and go back after a good night sleep tomorrow?
greetings, martin.
/ Brevbäraren
I agree as well. And I'd like to remind some things to some people:
1. It's not because someone or something might be the worst thing in the world that you have to give names to poeple. If you did it, that could worth some excuses. Mail is not a computer thing, you are speaking to poeple and everybody cares when you say "anal" for example.
2. In case it happens there should be someone with some kind of wide acceptance (read: the Pike maintainer or the manager for Pike@IDA) which should calm down things.
3. I think the mail like the one I answered with stupid mail++ are stupid because even if you don't care about Debian and size of the Pike community, it's not a reason to say it on the list and there are some poeple who cares about it (like me). If you really think that, then, please don't say it on the list. It's not productive and leads to nowhere.
The only result of such a debate is that you'll lower the size of the community and poeple giving names will be the only ones using it even with the best technical product in the world. That's the sort of talking for which a Pike master with wide acceptance whould be usefull to say "Ok this comment is only the one of the author, not the one from the main Pike team".
Martin Nilsson (saturator) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I agree. I don't know what that was that was happening. It looked like everyone but Niels tried its best to not solve the problem, except for themselves.
/ Martin Nilsson (saturator)
Previous text:
2004-01-27 02:04: Subject: decorum
Guys,
I have a few things that I need to get off my chest, and is not intended to be an extension of any discussions that went on earlier. It's a little bit long, and it's also not intended to offend. Please read and consider...
<mode="rant">
Whether anyone here cares to admit it, this is a serious problem. It's a real shame that Martin has to be the peace maker here, and it's not the first time it's been necessary. This community is too small to afford the loss of even one contributor. I feel that a lot of progress had been made recently, particularly since the conference, and today, things have been set back 6 months.
If you don't care whether anyone else uses your software, or whether anyone beyond the current user base gets involved, that's just fine. However there are those among us who either depend on it [pike] for their livelihood or have an major investment in it in time, effort, money, etc. These sorts of goings on have a direct impact on our ability to find and retain the kind of talent that's required to succeed at whatever we're trying to accomplish.
Everyone commits the occasional email indiscretion from time to time (myself included), however the comments that flew during the Debian conversation were really out of line. As martin mentioned, it quickly got to the point where the original question and comments were completely lost. If you are unable to restrain yourself from typing things that are both non-productive and insulting to others, at least have the good sense to delete the message before sending it.
No one gets along with everyone all of the time. I know I don't. Not everyone has a mastery of each other's native language and cultures. I know I don't even have that good of a grasp of english, and it's my primary language. Not everyone thinks Debian is the best thing since sliced bread. I know I certainly don't.
Maybe a whole bunch of people were just having a bad day. I guess anything is possible, and placing blame really isn't my thing. I'd prefer to just learn from our mistakes and move on. With that in mind, here's a bit of advise for whatever it's worth: On several occasions, I've gotten into lengthy, passionate arguments with people on this list, and as far as I know, no one involved has walked away offended. How do I do it, you might ask? I am patient and polite in my communications, email in particular. I might think that Martin and his opinions are the root of all evil, and that all Austrians should have their email privileges revoked, but I keep that to myself. (that was humor, btw).
The long and the short of it is that, in all likelihood, pike has lost a developer that was at least trying to make things better. Did it have to happen that way? No. Each one of us has a responsibility to make this place as productive and open to new ideas as possible. Otherwise, we're all just wasting our time. I'd hate to think that that was the way it had to be.
</mode>
Thanks for listening,
Bill
On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 04:35 PM, Martin Bähr wrote:
guys, this is getting out of hands, i read things like:
you're determined to ignore them, right? and you seem to be intentionally minsunderstandning things in texts we write
so instead of talking about solutions we are accusing each other of bad intentions.
is there anyone left with good intentions. who here is really still interrested in getting pike to work? it seems that there is more interrest in insisting to be right.
can we please stop this senseless discussion now, and go back after a good night sleep tomorrow?
greetings, martin.
/ Brevbäraren
I hope everyone understands that no one, including me, is speaking on behalf of any mythical the Pike team. Ever. Everyone on this list is part of the Pike team, and it is blatantly obvious that we can't speak on behalf of each other.
(except perhaps when, at the end of the changelog in new releases, when it is signed "Enjoy, The Pike Team")
/ Martin Nilsson (saturator)
Previous text:
2004-01-27 10:55: Subject: Re: decorum
I agree as well. And I'd like to remind some things to some people:
- It's not because someone or something might be the worst thing in the
world that you have to give names to poeple. If you did it, that could worth some excuses. Mail is not a computer thing, you are speaking to poeple and everybody cares when you say "anal" for example.
- In case it happens there should be someone with some kind of wide
acceptance (read: the Pike maintainer or the manager for Pike@IDA) which should calm down things.
- I think the mail like the one I answered with stupid mail++ are
stupid because even if you don't care about Debian and size of the Pike community, it's not a reason to say it on the list and there are some poeple who cares about it (like me). If you really think that, then, please don't say it on the list. It's not productive and leads to nowhere.
The only result of such a debate is that you'll lower the size of the community and poeple giving names will be the only ones using it even with the best technical product in the world. That's the sort of talking for which a Pike master with wide acceptance whould be usefull to say "Ok this comment is only the one of the author, not the one from the main Pike team".
Martin Nilsson (saturator) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I agree. I don't know what that was that was happening. It looked like everyone but Niels tried its best to not solve the problem, except for themselves.
/ Martin Nilsson (saturator)
Previous text:
2004-01-27 02:04: Subject: decorum
Guys,
I have a few things that I need to get off my chest, and is not intended to be an extension of any discussions that went on earlier. It's a little bit long, and it's also not intended to offend. Please read and consider...
<mode="rant">
Whether anyone here cares to admit it, this is a serious problem. It's a real shame that Martin has to be the peace maker here, and it's not the first time it's been necessary. This community is too small to afford the loss of even one contributor. I feel that a lot of progress had been made recently, particularly since the conference, and today, things have been set back 6 months.
If you don't care whether anyone else uses your software, or whether anyone beyond the current user base gets involved, that's just fine. However there are those among us who either depend on it [pike] for their livelihood or have an major investment in it in time, effort, money, etc. These sorts of goings on have a direct impact on our ability to find and retain the kind of talent that's required to succeed at whatever we're trying to accomplish.
Everyone commits the occasional email indiscretion from time to time (myself included), however the comments that flew during the Debian conversation were really out of line. As martin mentioned, it quickly got to the point where the original question and comments were completely lost. If you are unable to restrain yourself from typing things that are both non-productive and insulting to others, at least have the good sense to delete the message before sending it.
No one gets along with everyone all of the time. I know I don't. Not everyone has a mastery of each other's native language and cultures. I know I don't even have that good of a grasp of english, and it's my primary language. Not everyone thinks Debian is the best thing since sliced bread. I know I certainly don't.
Maybe a whole bunch of people were just having a bad day. I guess anything is possible, and placing blame really isn't my thing. I'd prefer to just learn from our mistakes and move on. With that in mind, here's a bit of advise for whatever it's worth: On several occasions, I've gotten into lengthy, passionate arguments with people on this list, and as far as I know, no one involved has walked away offended. How do I do it, you might ask? I am patient and polite in my communications, email in particular. I might think that Martin and his opinions are the root of all evil, and that all Austrians should have their email privileges revoked, but I keep that to myself. (that was humor, btw).
The long and the short of it is that, in all likelihood, pike has lost a developer that was at least trying to make things better. Did it have to happen that way? No. Each one of us has a responsibility to make this place as productive and open to new ideas as possible. Otherwise, we're all just wasting our time. I'd hate to think that that was the way it had to be.
</mode>
Thanks for listening,
Bill
On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 04:35 PM, Martin Bähr wrote:
guys, this is getting out of hands, i read things like:
you're determined to ignore them, right? and you seem to be intentionally minsunderstandning things in texts we write
so instead of talking about solutions we are accusing each other of bad intentions.
is there anyone left with good intentions. who here is really still interrested in getting pike to work? it seems that there is more interrest in insisting to be right.
can we please stop this senseless discussion now, and go back after a good night sleep tomorrow?
greetings, martin.
/ Brevbäraren
/ Brevbäraren
I was not calling anyone on this list anal, only the debian maintainers (as in, the ones who set the debian policies), who tend to make arbitrary rules for not very good reasons.
/ Per Hedbor ()
Previous text:
2004-01-27 10:55: Subject: Re: decorum
I agree as well. And I'd like to remind some things to some people:
- It's not because someone or something might be the worst thing in the
world that you have to give names to poeple. If you did it, that could worth some excuses. Mail is not a computer thing, you are speaking to poeple and everybody cares when you say "anal" for example.
- In case it happens there should be someone with some kind of wide
acceptance (read: the Pike maintainer or the manager for Pike@IDA) which should calm down things.
- I think the mail like the one I answered with stupid mail++ are
stupid because even if you don't care about Debian and size of the Pike community, it's not a reason to say it on the list and there are some poeple who cares about it (like me). If you really think that, then, please don't say it on the list. It's not productive and leads to nowhere.
The only result of such a debate is that you'll lower the size of the community and poeple giving names will be the only ones using it even with the best technical product in the world. That's the sort of talking for which a Pike master with wide acceptance whould be usefull to say "Ok this comment is only the one of the author, not the one from the main Pike team".
Martin Nilsson (saturator) @ Pike (-) developers forum wrote:
I agree. I don't know what that was that was happening. It looked like everyone but Niels tried its best to not solve the problem, except for themselves.
/ Martin Nilsson (saturator)
Previous text:
2004-01-27 02:04: Subject: decorum
Guys,
I have a few things that I need to get off my chest, and is not intended to be an extension of any discussions that went on earlier. It's a little bit long, and it's also not intended to offend. Please read and consider...
<mode="rant">
Whether anyone here cares to admit it, this is a serious problem. It's a real shame that Martin has to be the peace maker here, and it's not the first time it's been necessary. This community is too small to afford the loss of even one contributor. I feel that a lot of progress had been made recently, particularly since the conference, and today, things have been set back 6 months.
If you don't care whether anyone else uses your software, or whether anyone beyond the current user base gets involved, that's just fine. However there are those among us who either depend on it [pike] for their livelihood or have an major investment in it in time, effort, money, etc. These sorts of goings on have a direct impact on our ability to find and retain the kind of talent that's required to succeed at whatever we're trying to accomplish.
Everyone commits the occasional email indiscretion from time to time (myself included), however the comments that flew during the Debian conversation were really out of line. As martin mentioned, it quickly got to the point where the original question and comments were completely lost. If you are unable to restrain yourself from typing things that are both non-productive and insulting to others, at least have the good sense to delete the message before sending it.
No one gets along with everyone all of the time. I know I don't. Not everyone has a mastery of each other's native language and cultures. I know I don't even have that good of a grasp of english, and it's my primary language. Not everyone thinks Debian is the best thing since sliced bread. I know I certainly don't.
Maybe a whole bunch of people were just having a bad day. I guess anything is possible, and placing blame really isn't my thing. I'd prefer to just learn from our mistakes and move on. With that in mind, here's a bit of advise for whatever it's worth: On several occasions, I've gotten into lengthy, passionate arguments with people on this list, and as far as I know, no one involved has walked away offended. How do I do it, you might ask? I am patient and polite in my communications, email in particular. I might think that Martin and his opinions are the root of all evil, and that all Austrians should have their email privileges revoked, but I keep that to myself. (that was humor, btw).
The long and the short of it is that, in all likelihood, pike has lost a developer that was at least trying to make things better. Did it have to happen that way? No. Each one of us has a responsibility to make this place as productive and open to new ideas as possible. Otherwise, we're all just wasting our time. I'd hate to think that that was the way it had to be.
</mode>
Thanks for listening,
Bill
On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 04:35 PM, Martin Bähr wrote:
guys, this is getting out of hands, i read things like:
you're determined to ignore them, right? and you seem to be intentionally minsunderstandning things in texts we write
so instead of talking about solutions we are accusing each other of bad intentions.
is there anyone left with good intentions. who here is really still interrested in getting pike to work? it seems that there is more interrest in insisting to be right.
can we please stop this senseless discussion now, and go back after a good night sleep tomorrow?
greetings, martin.
/ Brevbäraren
/ Brevbäraren
Well, one might be anal when making rules, but there's also plenty of opportunities for being anal when applying a rule set, for example by refusing to understand the intentions embodied in the rules, and refusing to consider the particulars of the thing the rules are being applied to. It's very anal to apply rules blindly, letter by letter.
/ Niels Möller (vässar rödpennan)
Previous text:
2004-01-27 12:41: Subject: Re: decorum
I was not calling anyone on this list anal, only the debian maintainers (as in, the ones who set the debian policies), who tend to make arbitrary rules for not very good reasons.
/ Per Hedbor ()
pike-devel@lists.lysator.liu.se
-
Bill Welliver -
David Gourdelier -
Martin Bähr -
Martin Nilsson (saturator) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum -
Niels M�ller (v�ssar r�dpennan) ＠ Pike (-) developers forum
-
Per Hedbor () ＠ Pike (-) developers forum