Wendy wrote: <After a bit of Freudian imagery of Avon firing off a big rocket and fertalising her race, he then leaves her to die of radiation poisoning on Cephlon, having taken away her reason for living!>
Now let us be reasonable ... he took away said reason at her RATHER LOUD request (as far as she was concerned, doing so was *his* reason for living IMO).
Yes, the plot has decidedly sexist overtones, but I do think what's been done *with* it tends to skew them. Meegat may be totally subservient, but she is also the most in control of her part in the situation - she is totally unembarrassed, almost assured, as distinct from My Darling whose macho sexist role is rather undercut by his own kerflummoxed reactions (a lovely mixture of flattered, embarrassed, and - every time she throws herself at his feet - mildly appalled :-)). And Vila's teasing is aimed straight at *him* (even if somewhat unkind to Meegat, who barely notices Vila's existence anyway). I do love Avon's "let's not start that again" and his answer to Vila's "you're enjoying this, aren't you?" "*Probably*." (he really *isn't* sure ...)
The biggest problem *is* the fact that they appear to leave her there alone (a case of Bad Writer Syndrome, of course - I get the feeling the writer meant Meegat to have gone with the brood-rocket, but screwed it up by showing said rocket leaving). But none of the rest - not even Jenna or Cally, nor the anything-but-piggish Gan, nor Fearless Leader (of the infamous Bleeding Heart, remember?) - appear to have had any problems with Meegat being left. The obvious if inadequate inference is that she *chose* not to leave her home.
Alternately <g> she *was* on the Liberator being ferried to safety, but Avon's put her in one of the spare cabins during the flight and is keeping her and her penchant for throwing herself at his feet away from Blake's eyes (somehow, I don't think Avon could *stand* to have Blake see it ...).
And from Ellynne: <Although, it would have been fun to have Blake being held at gunpoint and Ensor having to negotiate with someone with that attitude.>
Ohh, yes ... watching anyone at all try to intimidate Blake would be enormous fun ...
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--- Sally Manton smanton@hotmail.com wrote:
Now let us be reasonable ... he took away said reason at her RATHER LOUD request (as far as she was concerned, doing so was *his* reason for living IMO).
And now it's become her reason for dying. Well done Avon.
Yes, the plot has decidedly sexist overtones, but I do think what's been done *with* it tends to skew them. Meegat may be totally subservient, but she is also the most in control of her part in the situation - she is totally unembarrassed, almost assured,
That's your interpretation, not necessarily Terry Nation's. It seems to me that you are reinterpreting a disturbing scenario to make it more comfortable for yourself. You are saying that she is in control and almost assured,yet subservient! Nope sorry, you've lost me there.
as distinct from My Darling whose
macho sexist role is rather undercut by his own kerflummoxed reactions (a lovely mixture of flattered, embarrassed, and - every time she throws herself at his feet - mildly appalled :-)). And Vila's teasing is aimed straight at *him* (even if somewhat unkind to Meegat, who barely notices Vila's existence anyway). I do love Avon's "let's not start that again" and his answer to Vila's "you're enjoying this, aren't you?" "*Probably*." (he really *isn't* sure ...)
This again is your interpretation, but however you interpret it, the fact remains that Avon goes along with it. There does seem to be an attempt on behalf of the dialogue to undercut the blatant misogynogy, perhaps the work of the script editor, but unfortunatly all that is achieved is to justify the earlier bits.
The biggest problem *is* the fact that they appear to leave her there alone (a case of Bad Writer Syndrome, of course - I get the feeling the writer meant Meegat to have gone with the brood-rocket, but screwed it up by showing said rocket leaving).
And how exactly did you figure that, considering that he didn't write in any suggestion at all that she was supposed to go up with it? Even the fact that it's a "brood rocket" suggests that it's the brood that's supposed to go, not the rest of the population.
But none of the rest -
not even Jenna or Cally, nor the anything-but-piggish Gan, nor Fearless Leader (of the infamous Bleeding Heart, remember?) - appear to have had any problems with Meegat being left.
Exactly.
The obvious if inadequate
inference is that she *chose* not to leave her home.
Again, I don't follow. It would be equally fair to infer (and make a bit more sense, given that nobody seems to have any problems with it) that she was left behind without a second thought.
Alternately <g> she *was* on the Liberator being ferried to safety, but Avon's put her in one of the spare cabins during the flight and is keeping her and her penchant for throwing herself at his feet away from Blake's eyes (somehow, I don't think Avon could *stand* to have Blake see it ...).
Since there is no evidence for that, it sounds again more like you're trying to make the story sound less disturbing for yourself. "Don't worry, Little Red Riding Hood didn't die, the woodcutter saved her." Face it, Avon didn't save her, he left her on the planet to die.
Wendy
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Got to stick up for this ep, because the last scene of it is what made me a fan, the first time I saw it. I'll admit that I usually cringe most of the way through - not because I find it misogynistic, but because it embarrasses me for Meegat and Avon _both_. And yes, I'd find it embarrassing no matter what the genders of the groveller and grovellee - it's just 'entirely too much externalizing of emotion', to quote another show. But the last scene makes it all worthwhile.
There are, IMO, two things going on in this ep. One is to set up the 'Orac' plot, which can be discounted because it could have been easily folded into the next episode. The other, and far more important, is to characterize Avon - he is more human by the end of the ep; he is the character in this story that changes and grows. He has been humbled by a new awareness of the responsibility inherent in leadership and power. (He's annoyed that Blake has noticed that he's learned it, but he's learned it nonetheless. And yes, he does seem to keep trying to unlearn it; but I don't think he ever quite succeeds.) That final exchange with Blake is where, for me, Avon became a sympathetic, three-dimensional character.
I can indeed see where this ep might be interpreted as misogynist if the point were to set up Avon as some sort of Übermensch; but rather than aggrandizing him, in fact, it does the reverse. It is Avon, _not_ Meegat, that the episode mocks.
To deal with a few specific concerns:
[1] Jenna as damsel in distress - I honestly don't see this one. Everybody in the cast gets caught by the enemy, one time or another, _and has to be rescued by the others_. Jenna is not portrayed as some sort of helpless shrinking violet. She makes a real stab at escaping; the reason she can't isn't because she's female, but because she's outnumbered. Suggestions to the contrary strike me as more sexist than the actual portrayal. _If_ the women come in for significantly more than their share of getting captured, that might be a problem with the series as a whole, but isn't apropos to a discussion of a specific episode.
[2] The rocket is rocket-shaped - well, duh. And barring wings, so are airplanes and birds. If basic aerodynamics are sexist, take it up with the universe. On top of that, two words: stock footage. [And if anyone wants to complain about phallic symbolism where it might actually do some good - joystick manufacturers. I'm desperate to find a joystick small enough to fit my hands.] Plus, as Neil says, it's also a womb.
[For that matter, with the whole penetrating the void thing, maybe space exploration is in itself sexist and aggressively masculine, and we should stay happy and ignorant right here on Mother Earth. Hm. NASA's rockets are sort of whitish, and space is sort of blackish; maybe space exploration is racist too, whaddya think?]
[3] Meegat is female - well, if one wants to see entrusting a vitally important job - the saving of an entire race - to a woman as misogynist, then I guess there's no way to prevent one from seeing what one wishes to. However, I think I'd feel both honoured and humbled at being given such a responsibility. There's also no indication that all of those who held the position were female.
[4] Meegat can't launch the rocket - her entire race can't launch the rocket, so construing this as sexist is _ludicrous_. Besides which, if they can launch it, there's no story.
[5] Meegat is helpless - no, she's not; she's unsophisticated, which is something else entirely. She provides Avon and the others with the safety of her bunker, and the information needed to rescue Jenna. They'd all be dead without her. Fair trade for pushing a few buttons, I'd say.
[6] Meegat is subservient - she thinks they're the saviours of her race, her people have waited generations for this event and she's the only one privileged to witness it; of course she's subservient. She's practically overcome with ecstasy (not terror). She is _not_ a 21st-century human woman with a 21st-century mindset. Go have a face-to-face conversation with God, and see if you do as well. [Honesty forces me to point out that it's Vila and Gan who bring up the idea of God; Meegat never suggests such a thing.]
[7] She picked Avon - perceptive of her. How long would you have to be in a room with those three to decide which was the dominant male? Not long, I'll wager.
We also cannot disregard the possibility that, given the presence in other episodes of 'mystical' occurences, that Meegat's prophecy may have been an _actual_ prediction, and she might have had very specific information that would lead her to recognize Avon. He did fit the story very tidily.
[8] Launching a rocket falls in Jenna's expertise - I hardly think that being able to pilot the space shuttle qualifies one to run mission control. We're talking about operating computers here; far more Avon's field than Jenna's, who tends to be a fly-by-the-seat-of-one's-pants type IMO (cf. Breakdown).
[9] Avon didn't immediately correct Meegat's impressions of him/them - good for him! To do so would have been both stupid and unkind; stupid to go around upsetting your brand-new host when her hospitality is all that stands between you and a very dangerous situation, and unkind to walk into one's home and immediately start dismantling one's world-view without so much as a by-your-leave. Avon was in a delicate situation and absolutely right to proceed cautiously - whether said host was male or female, so no sexism there. And the final scene makes it quite clear that Meegat's incorrect impressions were cleared up before they left. Personally, I admire Avon's gentle and respectful treatment of Meegat.
[10] Avon didn't take Meegat and/or her people to safety on another planet - there is no indication that Meegat and her people (who presumably include both genders, so again this doesn't carry any inherent misogyny) wanted or asked to go. Meegat's people wanted the rocket launched; they _got what they asked for_. To blame Avon for not relocating them can only be based in a desire to blame Avon; it has nothing to do with the reality of the script. If they wanted to go and were not taken, it would be Blake's fault, or the entire crew's; but if they did not want to go, it would be far worse IMO to force them to leave their homes.
For that matter, there is no indication that relocating them would hold any advantage for them over staying where they were. They had apparently been subjected to the radiation for generations; they were dying from cumulative damage, not the immediate radiation sickness that was a threat to Liberator's crew. There is no reason to think that any long-term genetic damage would reverse itself in another environment. Why remove them from their homes to die on a strange planet? There have been many people who chose to die in a familiar place, rather than to pull up roots and take a chance elsewhere.
*
It seems to me that what's actually being objected to is that a person who needs help (on behalf of her race), who happens to be female, gets said help from a person who happens to be male. IOW, the message being _read in_ is female=weak, male=strong. But given that stories need some conflict or tension, be it weak/strong or good/evil, and given that we have only two genders, the only possibilities for the two main characters are m/m, f/f, m/f, f/m. Statistically, it's perfectly reasonable to have 25% of the stories being a man helping or besting a woman. If you look at the whole series, Servalan bests Avon sometimes, and mostly they draw. B7 certainly does not seem skewed in this respect.
Avon does not gain anything at Meegat's expense; rather, he learns an important lesson by helping her. That sounds like mutual benefit to me, not exploitation.
Sexism, like racism, ageism, etc., is fairly easy to find if one goes looking for it. The fact that a person wouldn't like to be Meegat, to behave like Meegat, to think like Meegat, does not automatically make Meegat a victim. Meegat, of course, is a character; but if she were a real person, and happy with her lot, then IMO to decry that happiness and force her into victimhood because it fits one's own worldview is far more misogynistic than anything Avon (or Terry Nation) did to her. The feminist movement was supposed to be about _choices_ for women, not about merely shoving them into a _different_ set of boxes. At least, that's the way I remember it. YMMV.
Mistral
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
There are, IMO, two things going on in this ep. One is to set up the 'Orac' plot, which can be discounted because it could have been easily folded into the next episode. The other, and far more important, is to characterize Avon - he is more human by the end of the ep; he is the character in this story that changes and grows. He has been humbled by a new awareness of the responsibility inherent in leadership and power. (He's annoyed that Blake has noticed that he's learned it, but he's learned it nonetheless. And yes, he does seem to keep trying to unlearn it; but I don't think he ever quite succeeds.) That final exchange with Blake is where, for me, Avon became a sympathetic, three-dimensional character.
The point is, he doesn't learn it. He still wants the power of being leader without having to consider the consequences, and once he achieves this, he shows no signs of wanting to let go. He is not daunted by the experience of responsibility, and in fact on several occasions, contray to what you suggest above, shows a total lack of concern for the people he encounters or for that matter for the crew he is supposed to be leading. Sounds like he learned a lot from the Meegat experience.
I can indeed see where this ep might be interpreted as misogynist if the point were to set up Avon as some sort of �bermensch; but rather than aggrandizing him, in fact, it does the reverse. It is Avon, _not_ Meegat, that the episode mocks.
Avon may be mocked, but Meegat is objectified.
To deal with a few specific concerns:
[1] Jenna as damsel in distress - I honestly don't see this one. Everybody in the cast gets caught by the enemy, one time or another, _and has to be rescued by the others_. Jenna is not portrayed as some sort of helpless shrinking violet. She makes a real stab at escaping; the reason she can't isn't because she's female, but because she's outnumbered. Suggestions to the contrary strike me as more sexist than the actual portrayal. _If_ the women come in for significantly more than their share of getting captured, that might be a problem with the series as a whole, but isn't apropos to a discussion of a specific episode.
Well to be honest, it wasn't me that raised the "Jenna is captured" issue. Personally I think it's a bit tedious that it had to be Jenna that is captured,and then rescued, by the men, but then you needed something for Blake to get really upset about, and Jenna was seen to be more than just a friend to Blake.
Seriously, I think Blake's 7 in general treated women pretty well, and gave us some memorable female charaters. That however still doesn't excuse this episode, in the same way that it doesn't excuse Power.
[2] The rocket is rocket-shaped - well, duh. And barring wings, so are airplanes and birds. If basic aerodynamics are sexist, take it up with the universe. On top of that, two words: stock footage. [And if anyone wants to complain about phallic symbolism where it might actually do some good - joystick manufacturers. I'm desperate to find a joystick small enough to fit my hands.] Plus, as Neil says, it's also a womb.
Well, duh, it's only a bloody rocket because the author bloody specifies it as such. Stock footage has nothing to do with it, they could have used model work, you know. I think a point's being missed here. OK, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but given that what we have here isn't just a spaceship taking off, it's a man firing off his rocket in order to provide a woman with children... I think I'd better stop there :-).
[For that matter, with the whole penetrating the void thing, maybe space exploration is in itself sexist and aggressively masculine,
Oh yeah... it's one small step for a man, all right :-).
and we
should stay happy and ignorant right here on Mother Earth. Hm. NASA's rockets are sort of whitish, and space is sort of blackish; maybe space exploration is racist too, whaddya think?]
That's taking it to extremes :-). Actually, come to think of it, though-- space exploration in and of itself isn't racist, yeah, but when did NASA send up a black or Asian astronaut?
[3] Meegat is female - well, if one wants to see entrusting a vitally important job - the saving of an entire race - to a woman as misogynist, then I guess there's no way to prevent one from seeing what one wishes to.
But the job isn't entrusted to her, it's entrusted to *Avon*!
There's also no indication
that all of those who held the position were female.
Beside the point. The point is, the author made that particular character female.
[4] Meegat can't launch the rocket - her entire race can't launch the rocket, so construing this as sexist is _ludicrous_.
Fair enough. But, the point is, the author has set up a scenario where all the men in her society are inadequate, so she has to wait for some stranger to come along and fire off her rocket for her.
Again, too, remember that this is all what the *author* is saying. Meegat's society doesn't exist outside of his mind, and other people's later rationalisations have nothing to do with it.
[5] Meegat is helpless - no, she's not; she's unsophisticated, which is something else entirely. She provides Avon and the others with the safety of her bunker,
oo-er!
[6] Meegat is subservient - she thinks they're the saviours of her race, her people have waited generations for this event and she's the only one privileged to witness it; of course she's subservient. She's practically overcome with ecstasy (not terror). She is _not_ a 21st-century human woman with a 21st-century mindset. Go have a face-to-face conversation with God, and see if you do as well. [Honesty forces me to point out that it's Vila and Gan who bring up the idea of God; Meegat never suggests such a thing.]
Hang on, if Meegat never suggests such a thing, how come *you're* assuming she thinks he's God?
[7] She picked Avon - perceptive of her. How long would you have to be in a room with those three to decide which was the dominant male? Not long, I'll wager.
And so she naturally has to prostrate herself in front of the dominant male? Sounds like you're recognising that there's a sexual(/sexist?) element to all this, even while you're denying it.
[8] Launching a rocket falls in Jenna's expertise - I hardly think that being able to pilot the space shuttle qualifies one to run mission control.
We're talking about operating computers
here; far more Avon's field than Jenna's
OK, perhaps being a pilot doesn't make you an expert on launching rockets-- but pulling off a computer embezzling scheme hardly makes you a rocket scientist (in the literal sense of the word! :-)) either.
And the final scene
makes it quite clear that Meegat's incorrect impressions were cleared up before they left.
Erm, which scene was this then?
Personally, I admire Avon's gentle and respectful treatment of Meegat.
No comment.
[10] Avon didn't take Meegat and/or her people to safety on another planet - there is no indication that Meegat and her people (who presumably include both genders, so again this doesn't carry any inherent misogyny) wanted or asked to go. Meegat's people wanted the rocket launched; they _got what they asked for_.
But we *don't* know how her people felt. All we deal with is one bloody character. Let's say aliens come to this planet and the first political figure they make contact with, who they then take as spokesperson for the entire species, is the Pope. He's not going to be representing *my* feelings, for a start.
blame Avon for not relocating them can only be based in a desire to blame Avon; it has nothing to do with the reality of the script. If they wanted to go and were not taken, it would be Blake's fault, or the entire crew's; but if they did not want to go, it would be far worse IMO to force them to leave their homes.
But the point is, the issue is never confronted. Nobody says, "Meegat, would you or your people like to go?" And Avon is the person in direct contact, and who she looks up to, and who, as some people have pointed out, now has the *responsibility* for this woman and her race on his shoulders? Really responsible, that, not even asking if they want to be saved.
As for Blake, he never even met her. How do you know that, had Blake been in that situation, he wouldn't have extended the offer?
For that matter, there is no indication that relocating them would hold any advantage for them over staying where they were.
Yeah, but were they given the choice?
Anyway, without all these complex and elaborate rationalisations, the story stands: A woman needs a man to fire off her rocket and fertilise her race. A man comes along, fulfils this need, then smegs off, leaving her on a radiation-soaked planet without even asking if she, or anyone else she knows for that matter, wants his number. And then he has the gall to go on about the responsibility of leadership afterwards. Really sensitive, Avon.
WEndy
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With as much snipping for length as I thought possible while retaining context and attempting to avoid misrepresenting either party.
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
The point is, he doesn't learn it. He still wants the power of being leader without having to consider the consequences, and once he achieves this, he shows no signs of wanting to let go. He is not daunted by the experience of responsibility, and in fact on several occasions, contray to what you suggest above, shows a total lack of concern for the people he encounters or for that matter for the crew he is supposed to be leading. Sounds like he learned a lot from the Meegat experience.
That is, of course, your interpretation of Avon; mine is very different. I do not see him as wanting the position of leader (rather, merely wanting _not_ to be a follower) - in part because of the awareness of the responsibilities of leadership which he was forced by this experience to confront. Which is not _necessarily_ a point in his favour - I think mostly he doesn't want the bother of it.
is Avon, _not_ Meegat, that the episode mocks.
Avon may be mocked, but Meegat is objectified.
Your use of the term is meaningless. None of the characters treat her as an object; and the author gives her far more dimension than he gives the male savages. I don't hear any of the men on the lyst yelling 'savage males - male bashing!' (They probably wouldn't dare.)
[1] Jenna as damsel in distress - I honestly don't see this one.
Well to be honest, it wasn't me that raised the "Jenna is captured" issue.
True, you didn't raise it; however, you did agree that it was 'as bad', and besides, my comments weren't directed solely to you.
Personally I think it's a bit tedious that it had to be Jenna that is captured,and then rescued, by the men, but then you needed something for Blake to get really upset about, and Jenna was seen to be more than just a friend to Blake.
Okay, here we come to an example of the real problem with this whole discussion. There is _no_ objective, factual material in the show that indicates that Jenna and Blake were more than friends. That is your interpretation of the material, which others do not necessarily share. In fact, your entire argument rests on _your interpretation_ of the material - which is okay! - except that you seem to want to present it as fact, while denying others the right to interpret the available material in another way. If you want to argue fact versus interpretation, you have to be able to draw the distinction in your _own_ argument, not just other people's.
For example, Freudian interpretation is not inherent fact; for that matter, IIUC, Freud has fallen well out of favour in the professional psych community. A rocket does not _equal_ a phallus. Symbols can sometimes illustrate reality; they do not ever define it. That is a shade of difference I think you are missing.
Seriously, I think Blake's 7 in general treated women pretty well, and gave us some memorable female charaters. That however still doesn't excuse this episode, in the same way that it doesn't excuse Power.
I don't think that Deliverance needs an excuse. As I've pointed out, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a weaker female character and a stronger male character 25% of the time - it doesn't happen in B7 nearly that often. I simply don't feel offended or threatened by occasional non-heroic portrayals of women. If you do, that's your prerogative, but please don't insist that the rest of us must.
I also think it's pretty absurd to complain about Meegat, when third/fourth series Servalan is IMO the most blatantly misogynistic portrayal of a female I have ever seen in an SF series regular. She is (IMHO) an evil, sadistic, overly sexualized, emasculating bitch-queen whose sanity is questionable - a classic expression of male fantasies/fears; and to see intelligent women embracing her as a strong, admirable portrayal of womanhood - well, it's odd, to say the least.
[2] The rocket is rocket-shaped - well, duh. And barring wings, so are airplanes and birds. If basic aerodynamics are sexist, take it up with the universe. On top of that, two words: stock footage.
Well, duh, it's only a bloody rocket because the author bloody specifies it as such. Stock footage has nothing to do with it, they could have used model work, you know. I think a point's being missed here. OK, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but given that what we have here isn't just a spaceship taking off, it's a man firing off his rocket in order to provide a woman with children... I think I'd better stop there :-).
See my above comment re Freud. A cigar is almost always just a cigar. And don't be disingenuous; stock footage was cheaper than model work, which would have been a concern, particularly in the first season.
[3] Meegat is female - well, if one wants to see entrusting a vitally important job - the saving of an entire race - to a woman as misogynist, then I guess there's no way to prevent one from seeing what one wishes to.
But the job isn't entrusted to her, it's entrusted to *Avon*!
No, Avon's job isn't possible without Meegat; she's the one entrusted with relaying the wishes of her people to the rocket-launcher - whether that were Avon, Jenna, or someone else. This isn't a case of Avon marginalizing Meegat, or Terry Nation marginalizing Meegat; it's a case of _you_ marginalizing Meegat.
There's also no indication that all of those who
held the position were female.
Beside the point. The point is, the author made that particular character female.
25% rule. Nation could have flipped a coin, for all you know. It is just as sexist to insist that all female characters be strong/admirable/whatever-you-like, as to insist that none of them be.
[4] Meegat can't launch the rocket - her entire race can't launch the rocket, so construing this as sexist is _ludicrous_.
Fair enough. But, the point is, the author has set up a scenario where all the men in her society are inadequate, so she has to wait for some stranger to come along and fire off her rocket for her.
If Meegat and the men in her society are equally unable to perform this action, the situation cannot reasonably be perceived as sexist, but at best societist (for lack of a better word). You are perceiving it as sexist because you _want_ to.
Again, too, remember that this is all what the *author* is saying. Meegat's society doesn't exist outside of his mind, and other people's later rationalisations have nothing to do with it.
But that would include your rationalizations. You can no more read Terry Nation's mind than anybody else can. Quite apart from that, you appear to be blurring the lines between Deliverance-/Nation-/Avon- is misogynistic. Those may indeed be interrelated, but they are not the same, you know.
Go have a face-to-face conversation with God, and see if you do as well. [Honesty forces me to point out that it's Vila and Gan who bring up the idea of God; Meegat never suggests such a thing.]
Hang on, if Meegat never suggests such a thing, how come *you're* assuming she thinks he's God?
I'm not; it's mentioned in the last scene by Cally and Avon. And a correction; it's Gan who brings it up, then Avon later, in response to a comment from Vila. See, I had double-checked it and still made a mistake.
[7] She picked Avon - perceptive of her. How long would you have to be in a room with those three to decide which was the dominant male? Not long, I'll wager.
And so she naturally has to prostrate herself in front of the dominant male? Sounds like you're recognising that there's a sexual(/sexist?) element to all this, even while you're denying it.
:) Sorry, but that's just a reference to 'Sand', for my own amusement. As several people have pointed out, this is a religious dynamic, not a sexual one.
And the final scene makes it quite clear that Meegat's incorrect impressions were cleared up before they left.
Erm, which scene was this then?
As I said, the last one:
CALLY: Did she really think you were a god? AVON: For a while.
Which IMO clearly implies _not permanently_.
[10] Avon didn't take Meegat and/or her people to safety on another planet - there is no indication that Meegat and her people (who presumably include both genders, so again this doesn't carry any inherent misogyny) wanted or asked to go. Meegat's people wanted the rocket launched; they _got what they asked for_.
But we *don't* know how her people felt. All we deal with is one bloody character. Let's say aliens come to this planet and the first political figure they make contact with, who they then take as spokesperson for the entire species, is the Pope. He's not going to be representing *my* feelings, for a start.
An absurd comparison. Meegat was chosen to represent her hundred-or-so people to the strangers from the stars. That was what she was waiting to do. The Pope has not been chosen to represent the several billion inhabitants of Earth to alien visitors.
Quite apart from that, if a political spokesperson has to represent the feelings or opinions of everyone for whom he speaks, you've just thrown democracy right out the window - along with pretty much every other form of government.
As for Blake, he never even met her. How do you know that, had Blake been in that situation, he wouldn't have extended the offer?
<sigh> Here you go assuming your inferences as fact again. We don't know that Blake didn't meet her, that Avon didn't invite Meegat to go with them, that Blake didn't deliver an impassioned speech to the entire race, and the scavengers as well, pleading with tears in his eyes and a tremulous voice, begging them to let Liberator carry them away. There is no information either way, and your interpretation that they weren't asked is no more inherently valid than another fan's interpretation that they were. If you want to be convincing, you need to present some _evidence_ from within the series, either episodic or character-centric, that supports your interpretation. So far, you're making baseless claims - do you really not see the difference? The fact that I have never seen an intelligent member of an alien race does not prove that there is no intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
Anyway, without all these complex and elaborate rationalisations, the story stands: A woman needs a man to fire off her rocket and fertilise her race. A man comes along, fulfils this need, then smegs off, leaving her on a radiation-soaked planet without even asking if she, or anyone else she knows for that matter, wants his number. And then he has the gall to go on about the responsibility of leadership afterwards. Really sensitive, Avon.
No, that's an interpretation of the story. The facts of the story are closer to this: a technologically collapsed race needs a member of a technologically advanced race to launch a rocket which their ancestors built and seeded. A rather self-important (male) member of a technologically advanced race comes along and agrees to push the buttons when asked by a (female) member of the technologically collapsed race. No information is given about what happened to any of the members of the technologically collapsed race afterwards. (And even with my sincere effort to be factual, the above undoubtedly contains some interpretative bias; that's the nature of the observation.)
Avon does NOT go on about the responsibility of leadership afterward. That is MY interpretation of the subtext of the final scene.
Surely, Wendy, you can't be as surprised as you seem to imply that not everybody agrees 100% with you about this? Why ask for opinions, then? Anyway, this has been interesting, and I hope you don't think I mean to be getting at you, because I don't.
Mistral
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
With as much snipping for length as I thought possible while retaining context and attempting to avoid misrepresenting either party.
Me too. :)
That is, of course, your interpretation of Avon; mine is very different. I do not see him as wanting the position of leader (rather, merely wanting _not_ to be a follower)
Yes, but in "Pressure point" he strikes a deal with Blake to take over Liberator once Blake has returned to Earth to lead the masses to victory etc. This is directly referred to again in Star One. There are also a number of references after "Deliverance" that Avon makes to wanting to take over Liberator. I can hear you saying right now, "Oh, that doesn't mean he wants to be a leader, just that he wants the ship." OK, so how does he expect to run a big ship like that all on his lonesome (and Vila in Star One makes it clear that the crew are part of the bargain struck), and why, when Blake is finally gone, doesn't he just let Captain Tarrant take charge and either go off to do his own thing or stuck around and baited him from the sidelines?
Avon may be mocked, but Meegat is objectified.
Your use of the term is meaningless. None of the characters treat her as an object;
No, they treat her as a means to an end. A woman deluded into thinking Avon is God, a delusion which they can easily exploit to get what they want.
and the author gives her far more dimension than he gives the male savages.
Not that that's saying much :-).
I don't hear any of the men on the
lyst yelling 'savage males - male bashing!' (They probably wouldn't dare.)
Yes--come on, boys, why *haven't* you been saying that? It is just as bad a stereotype to show males as rough, tough and brainless thugs who'd as soon kidnap a woman as look at her. Or, wait, could it be that these actions are maybe seen in this culture as macho? Kind of positive even? How many action-movie heroes does that above sentence describe?
something for Blake to get really upset about, and Jenna was seen to be more than just a friend to
Blake.
Okay, here we come to an example of the real problem with this whole discussion. There is _no_ objective, factual material in the show that indicates that Jenna and Blake were more than friends.
True-- but there are hints. Far more hints, in fact, than suggest that Avon and Blake were more than just good friends-- and this doesn't seem to stop some people writing stories (and in some cases believing it to be true, possibly?) suggesting that this was the case.
In fact, your entire argument rests on _your interpretation_ of the material - which is okay! - except that you seem to want to present it as fact, while denying others the right to interpret the available material in another way.
No. I presented my opinion, which I backed up using facts from the story. Other people presented their opinions, which they similarly backed up with facts from the story. I then responded in kind by pointing out what I saw as the holes in their arguments, just as they had done for mine. This is NOT denying people's right to interpret the material in their own way; it's just saying that I see certian problems in their reasoning on SOME of the points.
This is what's called a debate.
For example, Freudian interpretation is not inherent fact;
Never said it was :-).
or that
matter, IIUC, Freud has fallen well out of favour in the professional psych community.
But the last time I looked, not out of favour in literary criticism.
A rocket does not _equal_ a
phallus.
It doesn't. It *symbolises* it. I never said the rocket *was* a phallus, just that I found the *symbols* in the story a bit dubious.
Symbols can
sometimes illustrate reality; they do not ever define it.
But this isn't *reality*. It's a *story.* For instance, in the novel Jane Eyre, IIRC there is a storm at one point when the main character is having an emotional crisis. The parallels between crisis and storm are obvious, and because it's a novel, the author can get away with having a storm raging outside while the character is having a crisis.
Similarly, in Deliverance, you have a plot which is about a woman desiring children, which a man comes along and gives her (and I agree that this can be a positive image!) which is then mirrored in the imagery of the buttons being pressed and the seed-bearing rocket firing. Nation has used symbolism before, why not here?
I don't think that Deliverance needs an excuse. As I've pointed out, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a weaker female character and a stronger male character 25% of the time - it doesn't happen in B7 nearly that often. I simply don't feel offended or threatened by occasional non-heroic portrayals of women. If you do, that's your prerogative, but please don't insist that the rest of us must.
I don't. But it goes beyond "occasional non-heroic portrayals." Let's face it, in most TV sci-fi, the default position for women is as helpless rescuee. B7 is better than most for showing women in other roles-- but it's substantially more than 25% of the time that a woman needs rescuing by a man, even in B7.
I also think it's pretty absurd to complain about Meegat, when third/fourth series Servalan is IMO the most blatantly misogynistic portrayal of a female I have ever seen in an SF series regular. She is (IMHO) an evil, sadistic, overly sexualized, emasculating bitch-queen whose sanity is questionable - a classic expression of male fantasies/fears; and to see intelligent women embracing her as a strong, admirable portrayal of womanhood - well, it's odd, to say the least.
But Servalan is not portrayed as being evil and power-seeking *because she's a woman,* she is portrayed as being evil and power-seeking because she's a megalomaniac. Nowhere in series 4 does anybody, IIRC, suggest that women in power are overly sexualised, emasculating bitches-- just that Servalan is, cause she's mad.
But yes, I'd agree that it could be a bit dubious to see her as a strong, admirable woman... but since I've been accused repeatedly of not listening to other people's opinions, I'm not going to bother to answer. The rest of you can debate that one.
See my above comment re Freud. A cigar is almost always just a cigar.
See my above comment re Bronte. A storm in that case isn't just a storm.
And don't be disingenuous; stock footage was cheaper than model work, which would have been a concern, particularly in the first season.
But the script specifies a rocket.
But the job isn't entrusted to her, it's entrusted
to
*Avon*!
No, Avon's job isn't possible without Meegat; she's the one entrusted with relaying the wishes of her people to the rocket-launcher - whether that were Avon, Jenna, or someone else. This isn't a case of Avon marginalizing Meegat, or Terry Nation marginalizing Meegat; it's a case of _you_ marginalizing Meegat.
Oh yes? But where in the script is it said that Avon's job isn't possible without Meegat. When she is saying "You've come to save us, My Lord!" does he, or anyone else, ever stop and say "Hang on, you're role is just as important?" No, they just treat her role as being a messenger one and Avon as being the central figure.
If I'm seeing Meegat as marginalised-- and read some of the other answers, I'm not the only one-- that means there's some potential in the script for her to be seen that way.
Beside the point. The point is, the author made
that
particular character female.
25% rule. Nation could have flipped a coin, for all you know.
But do you really, honestly, think he did? Do you really think he considered a potential alternative scenario in which some bloke opens the door and says "You have come, my lord!" and drops at Avon's feet? As Neil (I think) says, he was just going for the cliche of 1000 other SF and adventure films/shows, of the beautiful alien priestess waiting for a male saviour.
It is just
as sexist to insist that all female characters be strong/admirable/whatever-you-like, as to insist that none of them be.
I'm not suggesting they all should be. Just that they should be more than ciphers.
Message truncated by Yahoo, so sorry if I've missed some of the more major points after this. But, as for your question of why I asked for people's opinions if I had such strong views about the episode: well, for one thing I wanted to see if my views were shared or whether I was just barking up the wrong tree. And while you disagree (and no, whatever you say I have no problem with that), there does seem to have been room for a lot of debate here. For another thing: I will repeat. This is a *debate.* In a debate, people take positions and defend them.
W.
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On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 05:13:41PM -0800, Penberriss Wendy S. wrote:
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
[much snippage]
I also think it's pretty absurd to complain about Meegat, when third/fourth series Servalan is IMO the most blatantly misogynistic portrayal of a female I have ever seen in an SF series regular. She is (IMHO) an evil, sadistic, overly sexualized, emasculating bitch-queen whose sanity is questionable - a classic expression of male fantasies/fears; and to see intelligent women embracing her as a strong, admirable portrayal of womanhood - well, it's odd, to say the least.
But Servalan is not portrayed as being evil and power-seeking *because she's a woman,* she is portrayed as being evil and power-seeking because she's a megalomaniac. Nowhere in series 4 does anybody, IIRC, suggest that women in power are overly sexualised, emasculating bitches-- just that Servalan is, cause she's mad.
Excuse me? You can't have it both ways. If Meegat is a symbol of womanhood, then Servalan is too. If Servalan is an example of a power-mad villain who just happens to be a woman, then Meegat is an example of a person in need of help who just happens to be a woman.
Kathryn Andersen (wondering why she's still participating in this increasingly pointless debate) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Doctor: I feel disoriented. Sarah: This is the disorientation centre. Doctor: That makes sense.
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
In fact, your entire argument rests on _your interpretation_ of the material - which is okay! - except that you seem to want to present it as fact, while denying others the right to interpret the available material in another way.
No. I presented my opinion, which I backed up using facts from the story. Other people presented their opinions, which they similarly backed up with facts from the story. I then responded in kind by pointing out what I saw as the holes in their arguments, just as they had done for mine. This is NOT denying people's right to interpret the material in their own way; it's just saying that I see certian problems in their reasoning on SOME of the points.
This is what's called a debate.
No, I'm all in favour of a good debate - if it were being conducted as you say above. But you've accused several people of reading things into the story that weren't there while you continue to do the same thing yourself without apparently being aware of it.
If, for example, you said that _the story doesn't tell us_ that Meegat and her people were asked if they would like to be relocated, that's a fact, and I'd agree with it. There might even be some scope to talk about the implications of the fact that we're not told; whether it's unconscious sexism or societism, bad writing, or a hard choice dictated by the limited airtime.
Or if you said that _you don't believe from context_ that Meegat and her people were asked, there might be scope to discuss why you don't believe the context supports the idea that they were told, and why others believe that it does. That's certainly more productive than saying someone who believes they must have been told is making up things in order to comfort herself about the nasty, cruel, sexist plot.
But instead, you choose to say that Meegat's people were not asked. That's simply _not_ accurate. The story doesn't tell us either way, therefore, it's an interpretation. But when, as with many of your other points, you simply keep repeating 'they weren't asked' as if it were a fact and without any supporting evidence -
That's not a debate. It's a shouting match. I *like* debates; they grow and develop and make one think new thoughts. Shouting matches are just loud and dull. So, I agree, let's not.
Mistral
Wendy replying to Mistral
Avon may be mocked, but Meegat is objectified.
Your use of the term is meaningless. None of the characters treat her as an object;
No, they treat her as a means to an end. A woman deluded into thinking Avon is God, a delusion which they can easily exploit to get what they want.
Exploiting people's delusions to get what you want from them might not be very nice behaviour, but it can also be extremely sensible. Given the predicament Avon et al were in (stranded on a dangerous planet), they'd have been daft not to at least consider stringing her along.
However, any real objectification of Meegat is not by the characters in the story but by the story itself, so we're back to Terry bloody Nation again (which was, I think, Wendy's point right from the very start). Yes, she's a plot device, but so what? Character-as-plot-device is a standard literary tool. All characters are plot devices to one degree or another.
Yes--come on, boys, why *haven't* you been saying that? It is just as bad a stereotype to show males as rough, tough and brainless thugs who'd as soon kidnap a woman as look at her.
Do you mind? We're far too busy discussing the nature of misogyny.
Or, wait, could it be that these actions are maybe seen in this culture as macho? Kind of positive even? How many action-movie heroes does that above sentence describe?
Savage hairy primitives in a B7 script just make my eyes glaze over. Ho hum here we go again ect.
In fact, your entire argument rests on _your interpretation_ of the material - which is okay! - except that you seem to want to present it as fact, while denying others the right to interpret the available material in another way.
No. I presented my opinion, which I backed up using facts from the story.
This seems to be true, actually.
Other people presented their opinions, which they similarly backed up with facts from the story.
Also true, though the dividing line between facts and opinions seems to have been blurred to some degree by all contributors to the debate.
All except me, that is.
I then responded in kind by pointing out what I saw as the holes in their arguments, just as they had done for mine. This is NOT denying people's right to interpret the material in their own way; it's just saying that I see certian problems in their reasoning on SOME of the points.
This is what's called a debate.
And despite the less than enthusiastic response from some quarters, I think it's a jolly good one and just the kind of thing I subscribed to the Lyst for. I really am enjoying this one.
For example, Freudian interpretation is not inherent fact;
Never said it was :-).
or that
matter, IIUC, Freud has fallen well out of favour in the professional psych community.
But the last time I looked, not out of favour in literary criticism.
So by your own admission you stand by the principles of a discipline that eschews inherent fact and makes recourse to hypotheses considered outdated by the professional community that stands to have the most practical use for them? Don't you think that literary criticism might be at fault here?
A rocket does not _equal_ a
phallus.
It doesn't. It *symbolises* it. I never said the rocket *was* a phallus, just that I found the *symbols* in the story a bit dubious.
Symbols can
sometimes illustrate reality; they do not ever define it.
But this isn't *reality*. It's a *story.* For instance, in the novel Jane Eyre, IIRC there is a storm at one point when the main character is having an emotional crisis. The parallels between crisis and storm are obvious, and because it's a novel, the author can get away with having a storm raging outside while the character is having a crisis.
Ah, so the storm is a plot device. It ends up being objectified in an insid ious piece of misotempestic trash masquerading as literature. Stand up for oppressed meteorological phenomena - DON'T READ JANE EYRE!!
Okay, I'm being silly. So what else is new?
I simply don't feel offended or threatened by occasional non-heroic portrayals of women. If you do, that's your prerogative, but please don't insist that the rest of us must.
I don't. But it goes beyond "occasional non-heroic portrayals." Let's face it, in most TV sci-fi, the default position for women is as helpless rescuee. B7 is better than most for showing women in other roles-- but it's substantially more than 25% of the time that a woman needs rescuing by a man, even in B7.
The Sevencyclopaedia actually lists the number of times each regular character was captured and how often they rescued others. Unfortunately there are problems in defining exactly what constitutes a capture/rescue, so figures are necessarily approximate. And quite often you have characters captured in batches, or rescuing others in batches. So it's very hard to extract any hard figures of male/female roles in being captured or rescued. In other words, I can't be arsed.
But Servalan is not portrayed as being evil and power-seeking *because she's a woman,*
She bloody well is!
she is portrayed as being evil and power-seeking because she's a megalomaniac. Nowhere in series 4 does anybody, IIRC, suggest that women in power are overly sexualised, emasculating bitches-- just that Servalan is, cause she's mad.
And nowhere in Deliverance does anyone take one look at Meegat's rocket and say, "Cor, what a whopper!"
See my above comment re Freud. A cigar is almost always just a cigar.
See my above comment re Bronte. A storm in that case isn't just a storm.
But if you're so hot on litcrit then you should be aware that the meaning of a text does not reside within the text itself, but is constructed by the author and reconstructed by the reader. The transmission of meaning into the text is distorted by noise impact on the author, with similar noise impact distorting the perception of meaning by the reader. Any meaning attributed to a text can only exist through a consensus of interpretation by a body of readers with or without corroboration from the author (assuming s/he is available to corroborate). A text taken in isolation is devoid of meaning.
In which case a storm can be nothing more than a storm, and a rocket can be nothing more than a big iron thing.
Neil
Neil Faulkner wrote:
This is what's called a debate.
And despite the less than enthusiastic response from some quarters, I think it's a jolly good one and just the kind of thing I subscribed to the Lyst for. I really am enjoying this one.
Somehow, that makes it all worthwhile ;-)
Mistral
From: Penberriss Wendy S. penberriss@yahoo.com
Message truncated by Yahoo, so sorry if I've missed some of the more major points after this. But, as for your question of why I asked for people's opinions if I had such strong views about the episode: well, for one thing I wanted to see if my views were shared or whether I was just barking up the wrong tree.
Aha! So you *were* trolling.
No wonder your spelling improved.
Neil
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
Picking up the rest of Mistral's points here (truncated before by Yahoo) :-).
Hang on, if Meegat never suggests such a thing, how come *you're* assuming she thinks he's God?
I'm not; it's mentioned in the last scene by Cally and Avon. And a correction; it's Gan who brings it up, then Avon later, in response to a comment from Vila. See, I had double-checked it and still made a mistake.
So the idea that Meegat thought Avon was a God was not mentioned on the planet by her or anyone to here, but was a later interpretiation made on board Liberator. Interesting.
[7] She picked Avon - perceptive of her. How long would you have to be
in a room with those three to decide which was the
dominant male? Not
long, I'll wager.
And so she naturally has to prostrate herself in
front
of the dominant male? Sounds like you're recognising that there's a sexual(/sexist?) element to all this, even while you're denying it.
:) Sorry, but that's just a reference to 'Sand', for my own amusement. As several people have pointed out, this is a religious dynamic, not a sexual one.
No. It is a sexual one under the guise of a religious dynamic.
And the final scene makes it quite clear that Meegat's incorrect impressions were cleared
up
before they left.
Erm, which scene was this then?
As I said, the last one:
CALLY: Did she really think you were a god? AVON: For a while.
Which IMO clearly implies _not permanently_.
But as we have already discoved, the reference to Avon being a God is made by the crew not directly by her. Lord doesn't only refer to God. As for Avon's reply "For a while" well, that's fairly ambiguous. It could mean that her regard for him fell markedly when he told her that now he'd shot his bolt, he was going to leave her to die :-)
But we *don't* know how her people felt. All we deal with is one bloody character. Let's say aliens come
to
this planet and the first political figure they make contact with, who they then take as spokesperson for the entire species, is the Pope. He's not going to
be
representing *my* feelings, for a start.
An absurd comparison. Meegat was chosen to represent her hundred-or-so people to the strangers from the stars. That was what she was waiting to do.
That's what Meegat says, but we only have her word for that!
The Pope has not been chosen to represent the several billion inhabitants of Earth to alien visitors.
He's been chosen to represent all Catholic people on earth, a number of which undoubtedly disagree with him on certain issues at least. Should Aliens ever visit the Earth I'm sure the Pope would expect to "represent" these people to the Aliens.
Quite apart from that, if a political spokesperson has to represent the feelings or opinions of everyone for whom he speaks, you've just thrown democracy right out the window - along with pretty much every other form of government.
But isn't that exactly what Meegat's doing?
As for Blake, he never even met her. How do you know that, had Blake been in that situation, he wouldn't have extended the offer?
<sigh> Here you go assuming your inferences as fact again. We don't know that Blake didn't meet her, that Avon didn't invite Meegat to go with them, that Blake didn't deliver an impassioned speech to the entire race, and the scavengers as well, pleading with tears in his eyes and a tremulous voice, begging them to let Liberator carry them away. There is no information either way, and your interpretation that they weren't asked is no more inherently valid than another fan's interpretation that they were. If you want to be convincing, you need to present some _evidence_ from within the series, either episodic or character-centric, that supports your interpretation. So far, you're making baseless claims
You're right, we don't know what went on off stage, but if you take the script at face value then it's a fact that they didn't go back as there is no indication in the script that they did. If an event had taken place on the scale that you described then surley there would have been some evidence of it.
Anyway, without all these complex and elaborate rationalisations, the story stands: A woman needs a man to fire off her rocket and fertilise her race. A man comes along, fulfils this need, then smegs off, leaving her on a radiation-soaked planet without
even
asking if she, or anyone else she knows for that matter, wants his number. And then he has the gall
to
go on about the responsibility of leadership afterwards. Really sensitive, Avon.
No, that's an interpretation of the story. The facts of the story are closer to this: a technologically collapsed race needs a member of a technologically advanced race to launch a rocket which their ancestors built and seeded. A rather self-important (male) member
Interesting choice of words here :-)
of a technologically advanced race comes along and agrees to push the buttons when asked by a (female) member of the technologically collapsed race. No information is given about what happened to any of the members of the technologically collapsed race afterwards. (And even with my sincere effort to be factual, the above undoubtedly contains some interpretative bias; that's the nature of the observation.)
Fair enough, that is a clinical, stripped down synopsis of the episode, but it's not that that's interesting here, it's the layers of metaphor and the diverse interpretations that can be placed on it, that are interesting.
Avon does NOT go on about the responsibility of leadership afterward. That is MY interpretation of the subtext of the final scene.
That is your interpretation, but unfortunatly is doesn't match with what happens later in the series.
But since you don't want me imposing my opinions on you (when did I? grumble grumble), this is my last word on the subject.
Wendy
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Sally said:
The biggest problem *is* the fact that they appear to leave her there
alone But none of the rest - not even Jenna or
Cally, nor the anything-but-piggish Gan, nor Fearless Leader (of the infamous Bleeding Heart, remember?) - appear to have had any problems with Meegat being left.
I know they don't have a Prime Directive, but it doesn't seem necessary to remove all denizens of unwholesome planets from planets they show no disposition to leave. Anyway, the radiation situation would have been the same if the Liberator crew had never arrived.
Alternately <g> she *was* on the Liberator being ferried to safety, but Avon's put her in one of the spare cabins during the flight and is keeping her and her penchant for throwing herself at his feet away from Blake's
eyes
(somehow, I don't think Avon could *stand* to have Blake see it ...).
BLAKE: I know. I don't like the responsibility either. AVON: Pity, that. Oh, hullo, Meegat. This is Overlord Blake I was telling you about. Try not to drool--he's wearing suede shoes. By the way, I've put Meegat and 78 of her compatriots on B Deck. I'm sure you'll enjoy having a large, worshipful crew at last, but we're almost out of tea bags. Well, I think I'll just go work out some trajectories or something-- what we really need around here is a supercomputer.
-(Y)
-
Dana Shilling -
Kathryn Andersen -
Mistral -
Neil Faulkner -
Penberriss Wendy S. -
Sally Manton